ONLY him/her FOREVER

Muir, I bet people had similar forms of binding contracts/agreements long before any religion or system we know of today came into existence. How do you figure marriage is a "wholly artificial construct", since so many people of so many different cultures throughout human history have voluntarily entered into some form of marriage?

As far as the religious thing, I'd also be willing to bet that throughout human history people have liked to have ceremonies to formalize their relationships -- this is probably true whether you are jumping over a broom or having a big catholic wedding or tattooing your lover's name on your... ring finger. I don't think it is always the forced thing you seem to think it is. It seems to be something humans naturally want, I must disagree that it is forced on us, generally speaking. Wasn't forced on me, anyway, or anyone I know.

I do agree, however, that without love and trust existing in the relationship,those things are not going to be created by any contract.

I think the reason so many people see it as being tied down is that they enter into it voluntarily, but with unrealistic expectations with incompatible partners... (???) I guess.
 
Last edited:
Marriage is what you make of it. To say that is has nothing to do with loving relationships is absurd to me. Yes, I'm sure there are people who marry just for convenience or other reasons not involving a committed, loving relationship, but if that's what they want to do with their marriages, it's fine by me. It doesn't mean that marriage, as a whole, is empty and meaningless. Mine certainly won't be. More and more people treat it as essentially meaningless because we live in a throw away society, though.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
^^ Thus the terms "starter houses" and "starter marriages"



...people should never be disposable and promises should not lightly be broken. :( Even if things change, mistakes are made and growth happens.
 
Last edited:
Sure i think people have always formed unions. I think that many of these unions in other cultures are arranged marriages, but many of these are still entered into 'voluntarily'. It is not the act of union which I think is forced, but the form which this union takes.

I am not attacking the union between people, what I am trying to suggest is that entering a legally binding contract should not be assumed by modern western society to be the automatic end point for couples.

I have strong views about contracts and debt being mechanisms of social control. Marriage often falls foul of both of these.

Modern society often constrains people in many ways and perhaps some of our social conventions need to be re assessed if people want to feel less constrained by society.

Life has taught me that if i want flexibility and freedom then I am best to avoid contracts and debt, in their various different forms.

A loving relationship is, in my opinion, no way enhanced by entering into a contract. Many people do however feel great social pressure to enter into various contracts (and debt) which often turn out to be poisoned chalices

I will stay with my partner because the things which brought us together endure, not because the law or the church dictates that i should
 
Last edited:
Marriage is what you make of it. To say that is has nothing to do with loving relationships is absurd to me. Yes, I'm sure there are people who marry just for convenience or other reasons not involving a committed, loving relationship, but if that's what they want to do with their marriages, it's fine by me. It doesn't mean that marriage, as a whole, is empty and meaningless. Mine certainly won't be. More and more people treat it as essentially meaningless because we live in a throw away society, though.
Posted via Mobile Device

Surely what you mean here is that your relationship won't be 'empty or meaningless'.

Marriage is just a contract that you have applied on top of your loving relationship.

I do know what you mean really, i am just trying to seperate loving relationship from contractual bond. A marriage involving a loving relationship is not superior to a loving relationship without the marriage if you see what i mean....its the relationship part which is important
 
Last edited:
No, it should not be taken lightly or thrown away at the first signs of adversity. I'm going to respond here Eric, since you ask your question right after my post. If you read back carefully what I said, one of the things I said was if you enter into the contract of marriage, and make vows, you should try to stay true to them. But it is hard work and unfortunately people (and thus relationships) do change. That's the biggest part of the challege, especially if both partners change in different directions.

The "tied down" part I was talking about was not about being in a relationship. I love that. It was about the nature of the relationship(s) itself. I was speaking of having enough love in your heart for more than one person at a time. Having multiple partners is generally frowned upon, and usually illegal. I find no reason for this and find the concept to be to "binding". You can't really get around it legally. You can setup a non-legal, live-in type multipartner relationship, but you will still have much of society frowning on you if they realise the nature of your setup. Why should my love for one woman, proclude me from loving another? I sense another good topic for a thread here.

I hope this clears up what I meant by "tied down".
 
QP, Woooo-hoooo! Free love for all! LOL:party:
(I love the concept but would find it difficult to practice in real life.) I mean, the sleeping arrangements alone would be a nightmare.

And Muir, you avoid debt as well as marriage? Really and truly?

That is admirable. Personally, however, I must say I feel far more tied down by (and less committed to) my mortgage than my husband.

:lol:
 
QP, Woooo-hoooo! Free love for all! LOL:party:
(I love the concept but would find it difficult to practice in real life.) I mean, the sleeping arrangements alone would be a nightmare.

And Muir, you avoid debt as well as marriage? Really and truly?

That is admirable. Personally, however, I must say I feel far more tied down by (and less committed to) my mortgage than my husband.

:lol:


LOL, yes it does sound a bit hippish! :mullet: And I will admit the real life setup would be far more difficult. It would take three very strong and special people to engage in such a realtionship. Look how hard it is for just two most of the time. I just don't like the concept that if I love this woman, I can't love others as well. It limits us I feel.
 
Marriage is a beautiful bond and beautiful relationship of life. We should not try to force each other, should try to give full commitment as husband and wife in this relationship.

Marriage doesn't need hard work, just it needs love,support, understanding and focus on each others duty. Marriage combines two soul into one.

My parents have successful marriage. They are living from last 21 yrs and happy with each other.
 
Yeah i agree in freedom of choice as well; whatever works for people and is healthy for them then they should be free to do that.

I am not saying that people are 'tied down' by their partners, I am saying they are tied down by contracts and debt; the system does make it difficult to avoid these

Couples tieing each other up, on the other hand, is fine as long as they are both consenting!
 
Yeah i agree in freedom of choice as well; whatever works for people and is healthy for them then they should be free to do that.

I am not saying that people are 'tied down' by their partners, I am saying they are tied down by contracts and debt; the system does make it difficult to avoid these

Couples tieing each other up, on the other hand, is fine as long as they are both consenting!

Contract and debt, i don't understand what do you mean? Sorry!
 
Last edited:
Marriage is a beautiful bond and beautiful relationship of life. We should not try to force each other, should try to give full commitment as husband and wife in this relationship.

Marriage doesn't need hard work, just it needs love,support, understanding and focus on each others duty. Marriage combines two soul into one.

My parents have successful marriage. They are living from last 21 yrs and happy with each other.

Strongly disagree with the bolded statement Roger. Yes it needs love and support--all the pretty, idealist things. But every marriage I know, including mine and my parents (45 years) has also required hard work. It just too complicted to just ride the whole way on love and gumdrops. Believe me, I'm as idealist as they come, but this is a truth that cannot be avoided my friend!
 
Contract and debt, i don't understand what do you mean? Sorry!

I don't think a contract is necessary for a successful relationship

It's interesting that you mentioned 'duty' in your post. I do think that people have responsibilities in a relationship, but I think you are perhaps meaning more societal duties relating to family?
 
Last edited:
Let me not to the marriage of true minds

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Admit impediments. Love is not love[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Which alters when it alteration finds,[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Or bends with the remover to remove:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]O no! it is an ever-fixed mark[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] That looks on tempests and is never shaken;[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]It is the star to every wandering bark,[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] Within his bending sickle's compass come:[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] But bears it out even to the edge of doom.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]If this be error and upon me proved,[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica] I never writ, nor no man ever loved.[/FONT]



[FONT=arial,helvetica] William Shakespeare [/FONT]


(He said it best, don't you think?)
 
Simply an awsome quote Janet! :m107:
 
This thread….Wow. I am amazed at this thread. It is the big container for idealism, unrealistic expectations and fear of abandonment and being alone. It is the breeding ground for lack of self development, disappointment and realizing you’re unsatisfied with life later on when your high and mighty dreams are crushed with the single blow of divorce papers.

Society as a whole in the American and westernized cultures have built up the idea of love. It is no wonder that women want to get married and have children when their childhood idols were Disney Princesses, when they were given baby dolls for Christmas and overall treated throughout there life as if there was some sore of expectation for that. Men are pressured the same way romantic wise; in contradictory terms as well. One of the terms thrown at males is that they must be the prince charming for every woman, while, at the same time retaining a tough playboy exterior. All of these stereotypes have painted a society where it is natural to constantly be looking for that ‘one true love’ to be pining and searching for a mate to start a family with, and dating nonstop in a rabid search to find someone to marry, for that is the American dream.

I am a protester of marriage. There are a lot of systematic reasons why I think Marriage is a bad idea, including political ones that involve separation of church and state, but there are also some closer to heart practical reasons why I do not think most people should exercise marriage and that there are stigmas attached to marriage that, in the end, are disappointed to nearly everyone. A marriage is a union that bonds two people, and it’s become to the point that if you are together and not married your relationship is ‘not as serious’. It also comes about that it’s easier to terminate bonds with someone you are not married to, etc. The idea that you need to stay with one person for the rest of your life is an idea I have never caught on to. I believe that a healthy individual who is interested in dating will have on average 4-6 long term committed relationships for every stage of life.


This is how I break it down:

Adolescence: I believe dating should start here. This would be 13-17ish, probably on the upper half of 15-17. This is the point in time where children transition to adolescence, developing reproductive systems and kick starting hormones. One relationship will typically form that will be long term, with two individuals who share the same interests. A high school sweetheart, you could say. Typically this breaks off as the individuals reach the next stage and develop different sides of themselves

Young Adult 18-25: This is the Young Adult phase that will typically enable a new relationship to develop. Typically individuals are going to college, working full time, and developing a better sense of self. They are no longer under the care of their parents but still have not developed a certain idea of themselves; many people get married during the Young Adult phase, but this is a BAD choice. Each person grows as an individual at different rates, but for most, the Young Adult phase is better spent alone or in a long term committed relationship that is agreed upon will not last forever.

Adult 26-37: This is the ‘adult’ stage which lasts a lot longer than most of the other stages. Most of the times the direction a person is going is set and this is a good time to get into a relationship because you tend to be consistent in your thoughts and ideas and living situation.

Aging Adult 38-48: This is the stage where an adult is considered ‘older’ yet, not quite physically old. The body starts to weaken while the mind flourishes. For intellectual relationships this would be the ideal age because most people have their own lives going on and are set in their ways. It can also be detrimental to relationships that were created at adolescence because a person has changed so much by this point in time that a relationship is no longer even remotely the same. Unless individuals change at the same rate, one will be left behind wondering what happened to what they once had

Retirement Age 49-67: This age is unique for the human cycle; individuals bodies are completely shutting down, they are reaching a mature age and are leading less and less active lives. Companionship becomes very important, especially for parents, who’s children are grown up and have completely left the house. This is the ‘nesting’ phase in childhood development classes but a very important one for relationships. Individuals are vastly different from how they were as an adolescent and continue to grow.

Senor Citizen Age 68+: Diseases that impair the memory typically set in now. Individuals are onset with the symptoms of old age and are gradually phasing out in their activities and involvement with relatives and the outside world. Companionship is very important, though, to those with diseases it can be very painful.

For each of the phases I described a new relationship should form; although, I’m sure for the last two phases continuance would be understandable. People change vastly during these stages and I truly believe a new partner---if a partner is needed for that stage at all (sometimes it’s better to be alone for a while)-- should be found.

I am also not apposed to polygamy and believe those relationships can be very healthy.

If you are getting into a relationship, though, because you feel you -need- one to complete you or you want one really badly, DO NOT get into a relationship. Relationships you will fall into when everything is going good for you- if this does not happen, then you should feel content as well, like has been stated, a good relationship with the self will heal any loneliness wounds as long as you have a network of friends, family, co-workers and the such to support you.

My attitude towards marriage and love is that they do not and should not exist; if we eliminate these ideals and look at life with a bit less of rose-colored glasses we will feel more empowered by ourselves and less worried about society-pushed manners of living.
 
It's certainly not for everyone, people have too often fallen into the social expectation of doing it when they're not (or will never be) ready for it.
 
I think this is a great question to ask in these modern times where old rules of keeping a marriage/relationship does not apply anymore. Not to mention the upbringing we all endured, broken up families/divorce/unhappy marriages, etc.

I can only speak from my experience. I come from a single mother household all my life and I never had a stable father figure. This obviously affected my outlook on relationships as my mother never married and remained a strong single woman until this day. But seeing her go through life alone made me want a bigger family of my own.

The way I approached relationships have always been about learning about myself through relationships. being in serious, committed relationships help define and shape what you want in a partner and also how you react to your partner. This also leads you to discover that relationship is mainly 80% work on both partners and maybe 20%love.

If the presumption is that you have picked well and in a relationship that shows promise but some work needs to be done then the challenge really starts to make it work or to break up and become a serial monogamist.

I am a firm believer that relationship takes work, and its not an easy road at all. It requires commitment, effort, understanding and communication on top of the mere love that it was built on. I don't like to see couples break up because they refuse to be flexible or adjust to the way the relationship evolves over time.

I look at it simply as relationship is the third person/thing you create from both partners much like a child. Its alive,it grows, changes, hits lows and hits highs just like a regular person. It is up to the partners to feed it, nourish it, give it comfort and love on a continual basis; otherwise it will become hungry, angry and slowly start to die.

and we all been there to have witnessed the death of a relationship and stand by it and wonder how it all happened.
 
1. Marriage is not an "artificial construct." That is, it is not an ersatz substitution for something that is "real." Marriage of some kind is found in just about every culture, primitive or advanced, on earth. Indeed, it is a cultural construct that exists for several important reasons.

2. Marriage protects the rights of children. It defines their responsible guardians, their inheritance rights, their relationships to extended family, etc.

3. Marriage provides a legal framework for property rights between spouses, their children, and extended family.

4. Marriage provides a legal framework for how people behave with each other and for their mutual responsibilities to each other.

5. Marriage provides social context. It is a relationship between two people that defines not only their mutual relationship, but how they relate to society in general. It is also an economic unit within the greater social environment.

Has marriage historically embodied gender inequality? Yes, but things have changed and continue to change. Can you be a legal guardian without being married? Yes. Can you designate heirs without being married? Yes. So what? There's diversity and flexibility in modern society, as there should be.

We have a friend who lived with a woman for 26 years without being married. She died in a car accident. Her children inherited the house and he was evicted, left with nothing from his lover. This is reality, folks. Then again, nobody is forcing you to get married.

I've been married to my INFJ wife for 33 years. We love each other now as much, or more, than ever. We've weathered terrible stresses together, ranging from my wife's medical residency (before they limited on-call hours), to the risks I took starting three businesses, to years-long contract (business) law suits (we prevailed). We've raised two sons who are happy and successful. We've regularly put ourselves in situations that were beyond our comfort zones and at odds with our personalities because one must do so to get anywhere in life. Life is full of stress, but having a life-long, loving, intimate relationship is one of the great comforts and supports in life. In general, married people are healthier, happier, and economically better off than unmarried people.

Many people disparage and deprecate marriage. I think some have had bad experiences from which they unfairly and unreasonably generalize. Others are afraid of marriage and the commitments it entails. Some people have the totally unrealistic expectation that one's partner must fulfill all their expectations and accommodate all their needs (if this were the case, who would need friends?). There are many ways to criticize the institution of marriage, yet it persists. If marriage were unimportant and of no use, it would die. But, people keep trying.

Marriage is not for the self-centered or the immature. To be happily married, it helps to listen, to share values, to pick your battles carefully, to be kind, and to take joy in your spouse's success. Finally, it helps to be lucky.

ed: One last bit. It's better to get divorced before marriage.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top