Poll: Gay marriage

[Flavus Aquila]

...It is about the Love. That is the only thing children need. Not a mum and dad. Just love, where ever that comes from is irelevant...

...But please keep in mind that these are real people and this is a real world issue that effects real people with real lives and real consequences...

Children need mum and dad to love them.

 

[hush]

Children need mum and dad to love them.

Some people don't find love in either, but they make families of their own. Family is far from limited to blood, and at times is found far beyond blood's reach.

 

[5r6jhd]

Children need mum and dad to love them.

Bull shit, my dad doesnt love me, and I'm ok. My daughter doesn't even have a father (in her life), and she'll be better off than me because nothing is better that a whole load of hate.

I barely even have family. My family are made up of a few crazy individuals that are in no way related to me that i have MADE my family.

Family is over rated. It comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes, and so long as there are people THERE for you who LOVE and SUPPORT you, I don't see how there can be a problem.


EDIT: I was writing this when the above post was posted. I agree.

 

[Jill Hives]

[MENTION=5297]Neverwhere[/MENTION] - This makes me think of that quote... "You can choose your friends, you can't choose your family."

It never sat right with me, and you stated exactly why!

Because, you absolutely CAN choose your family. I know why it says what it does, but still. You can.

 

[just me]

I am quite sorry for all that did not have love as a child from their parents. I am quite balanced having been raised by a man and a woman. I was loved. I personally think a child needs one of each to find their true potential in their mind and body. I am very sorry for those that did not, also. My Dad took me hunting and fishing, taught me how to work, took me camping. Two women could have done that, but it just would not be the same. My Mother was there when I needed the feelings cared for. This is trivial, as they were both much more and did things with me together I needed.

Marriage has always been a holy matrimony between a man and a woman. Gays, as you call them, want government benefits married people have. Fine, but why does it have to be called marriage? I think that gives marriage a black eye. Call it something else. Why not? And why take offense at that? It's alright to call one a gay, right? Why not call them a man or a woman? Gay seems to be OK, so find another word for gays wanting to bond.

Think before you get your feathers all tufted up about it. It would give people less to complain about. Think about the child before yourself, too. Peace.

 

[Jill Hives]

I am quite sorry for all that did not have love as a child from their parents. I am quite balanced having been raised by a man and a woman. I was loved. I personally think a child needs one of each to find their true potential in their mind and body. I am very sorry for those that did not, also. My Dad took me hunting and fishing, taught me how to work, took me camping. Two women could have done that, but it just would not be the same. My Mother was there when I needed the feelings cared for. This is trivial, as they were both much more and did things with me together I needed.

Marriage has always been a holy matrimony between a man and a woman. Gays, as you call them, want government benefits married people have. Fine, but why does it have to be called marriage? I think that gives marriage a black eye. Call it something else. Why not? And why take offense at that? It's alright to call one a gay, right? Why not call them a man or a woman? Gay seems to be OK, so find another word for gays wanting to bond.

Think before you get your feathers all tufted up about it. It would give people less to complain about. Think about the child before yourself, too. Peace.

Of course you would think that, this has been your experience, and your views have been shaped by your environment, those in it, and how you have been raised. But you shouldn't apply your own personal experience and existence to others in this way, because it would be false to do so. Don't waste your sympathy on people who don't need it or want it.

 

[the]

Of course you would think that, this has been your experience, and your views have been shaped by your environment, those in it, and how you have been raised.

Whats this supposed to mean? The same goes for you.

 

[Jill Hives]

Whats this supposed to mean? The same goes for you.

Obviously. It means that it is that way for everyone. The rest of my post holds my point. Just because one person has been raised to believe in one thing does not mean it applies to anyone else other than them, and feeling sorry for people who didn't get the same type of upbringing is pretentious and assumes more than it should.

 

[5r6jhd]

I totally agree with [MENTION=3240]Jill Hives[/MENTION]. It's kind of insulting to say, this is how it is, this is how its worked for me, everything else is just wrong. There are all kinds of people in the world with all kinds of needs. There are a million ways to have a family. Sadly, mommy and daddy families arent even the majority anymore.

In my class in secondary school (high school) 50% were prroducts of divorce and/or one parent families. By graduation the percentage had increased. There was a lot of hurt there and a lot of nasty situations. If two people regardless of sex want to get together and love, who's to say thats wrong? Forget wrong....i wont push my beleifs on anyone....who's to say thats BAD?

 

[Kgal]

People often say that I can be very cold and detached about things. With me, that's how I present externally most of the time, but true to INFJ form, I feel things very strongly. (I wish my bosses realised that, but if they did, I suppose I would not have been promoted to where I am).

The things that have probably had the strongest impact on me in relation to my opposition to gay marriage are from experiences growing up:

I'm getting to my mid-thirties, so my experiences growing up are probably a generation before many people on this forum. Back then I lived on a street where just about every house had a family with two, or three kids in it. We would always play, fight, chase, etc. after school - all up and down the street. Our parents would also do stuff together occasionally - cook-outs, monster garage sales, etc. I went to a school with over 1000 students - and basically almost everyone was in the same situation.

Then one day - and it seems like something started to change quickly - one of my friends wasn't himself. Being an all boys school, you didn't really ask what was wrong, but tried to be more considerate or something like that. It turns out that his parents separated. He once let on that it seemed that his parents didn't care about him, or his brothers anymore - they were too wrapped up with their own concerns. After that another, and another classmate would start flunking exams, missing school, losing/putting on weight. There were also a couple of suicides of students. We were all in shock - no one had ever heard of divorce, except among Hollywood actors, and no one had ever heard of suicide. I think people started becoming paranoid that their parents might separate.

Fast forward to when I was already out of school. My nephew, whose IQ was tested as being 4 standard deviations above average flunked out of school and he's basically always told me that I was more a father to him, than my brother, because I was actually interested in him and not just in myself. He has been suicidal since his parents broke up more than 15 years ago. He has a step-father and step-brother, but what affected him was that his actual parents at some point stopped worrying about him, and about their own problems. The split up basically wrecked my brother too. Moreover, the younger players in my work basically fall into two categories: those who can handle set backs and those who can't. These also basically line up with those who grew up with both their natural parents, and those who didn't.


...

So why should I be so passionate about this? Because my friend did not deserve to have his world turned upside down; because my classmate used to be happy and ended up committing suicide; because my nephew's life is screwed; because the younger guys I work with have been slugged with a disadvantage they did nothing to deserve. If exalting the importance and excellence of marriage, at the cost of some people's sense of linguistic liberty ("civil union: vs "marriage"), causes even one spouse somewhere to reign in his/her selfishness somewhat and some kid can grow up happy, it is worth it.

Ahhh....now there's more hurt and pain being admitted.

I'm sorry Flavus. I'm sorry for your pain and anguish and sorrow at watching those you love and care about losing their lives.

Being at a young age growing up is the time when pain and hurt is imprinted the strongest and deepest on us. Each subsequent painful experience - however tangential - triggers it - causing it to act as if it's a wound never fully healed - and the result is the pain gets felt again as if new.

I can see where your current views are filtered through your childhood grief and naturally you'd want to find ways and means to eliminate future possible pain....for any child.

 

[Kgal]

This issue is impacting someone in my extended family.

Friday my bestest first cousin and I were talking about his daughter. She's a lovely young woman - in college - and has a huge heart filled to the brim with compassion for all living creatures - people and all. I think she's an INFx... Apparently she had several traumatic experiences with guys when in high school and her early college years and has decided to be Lesbian. She's had a partner now for about a year and at the last family gathering several of us made sure to invite both of them to be with us "older" cousins when we have the 'just us grownups' dance-a-thon. We always have a wonderful time and I think it would be good for them to be with us in such an intimate gathering.

At any rate - my cousin remarked she is jealous of her little brother because he has two young awesome children. ....and of course - she cannot. As they live in Louisana - law prohibits her from adopting.

However, the Attorney General of Louisiana appealed the decision, and on April 12, 2011, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals overturned the district court ruling, holding that "the full faith and credit clause does not oblige Louisiana to confer particular benefits on unmarried adoptive parents contrary to its law. . . . Louisiana has a right to issue birth certificates in the manner it deems fit."[SUP][78][/SUP]

It's a shame really - because imo she would be a good mother. She lives near her own family and the child(ren) would have a community of loving people to raise them. A bunch of my cousins and their cousins all live on the hill where their parents grew up. I've spent many summers there and still see them at least once a year. All gracious - generous people. It would be a great place for a kid to grow up...

 

[Kgal]

I am beginning to see several pieces of this puzzle coming to the table.

I see where many people feel it is sinful for homosexuals to be sanctioned by marriage as it conflicts with the Bible and religious teachings. This leads them to believe that legalized marriage between LGBT persons allows the devil into the house of God. This scares those people.

I see where many people feel if homosexuals are allowed to marry by law - it further tarnishes the values and ideals equated with marriage. As same sex persons cannot have their own children - they seem to flaunt their wishes of actualization ahead of the original purpose of marriage - which is to have children and a family. This results in children being victimized and hurt. This idea scares these people.

I see where many people are oppressed by US (and other countries) law by being prohibited from marriage - just because they appear to be the same sex. This causes them to feel as if they are being treated as a person with no rights as a legal citizen. In truth - they are. This scares many people. This scares me.

I see hurt and pain and sorrow swirling all around the idea.

I also see Fear.

Hmmm....

 

[Rferraris]

What's missing here is validation.
If I say to you "I don't like this!"
You should say to me, if you disagree, "I see your point, but I feel this way." or "Yes, I agree with this part, but I feel strongly about this and this is my concern."

Reading through the 28 pages and months of discourse only shows this never happened. Questions are put out there and never answered directly.
A wonderful exercise in frustration.

I backed out once I saw the argument
was nothing but spewing hate by an old minded bigoted lonely sole with no life or friends worth having. Just felt sorry for the freak. Then again I don't.

 

[Kgal]

Some people don't find love in either, but they make families of their own. Family is far from limited to blood, and at times is found far beyond blood's reach.

Bull shit, my dad doesnt love me, and I'm ok. My daughter doesn't even have a father (in her life), and she'll be better off than me because nothing is better that a whole load of hate.

I barely even have family. My family are made up of a few crazy individuals that are in no way related to me that i have MADE my family.

Family is over rated. It comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes, and so long as there are people THERE for you who LOVE and SUPPORT you, I don't see how there can be a problem.


EDIT: I was writing this when the above post was posted. I agree.

I am quite sorry for all that did not have love as a child from their parents. I am quite balanced having been raised by a man and a woman. I was loved. I personally think a child needs one of each to find their true potential in their mind and body. I am very sorry for those that did not, also. My Dad took me hunting and fishing, taught me how to work, took me camping. Two women could have done that, but it just would not be the same. My Mother was there when I needed the feelings cared for. This is trivial, as they were both much more and did things with me together I needed.

Marriage has always been a holy matrimony between a man and a woman. Gays, as you call them, want government benefits married people have. Fine, but why does it have to be called marriage? I think that gives marriage a black eye. Call it something else. Why not? And why take offense at that? It's alright to call one a gay, right? Why not call them a man or a woman? Gay seems to be OK, so find another word for gays wanting to bond.

Think before you get your feathers all tufted up about it. It would give people less to complain about. Think about the child before yourself, too. Peace.

Yes just me ....we were all taught that in the old days. A child needed a father and mother - 2 genders - in the family so children would learn about both of the predominant roles in our culture.

In recent years - though - research has shown this is just not true - as long as the children are allowed to experience Father Figures and Mother Figures - as role models.

A consensus has developed among the medical, psychological, and social welfare communities that children raised by gay and lesbian parents are just as likely to be well-adjusted as those raised by heterosexual parents.[SUP][1][/SUP] The research supporting this conclusion is accepted beyond serious debate in the field of developmental psychology.[SUP][2][/SUP] Based on the robust nature of the evidence available in the field, Third District Court of Appeal State of Florida was satisfied in 2010 that the issue is so far beyond dispute that it would be irrational to hold otherwise; the best interests of children are not preserved by prohibiting homosexual adoption.[SUP][3][/SUP]

Traditional marriage as long held within the Western societal views has not faired well since after WWII. We could go into a long discussion as to why - but the facts speak for themselves. The saying "It takes a community to raise a child" is never more true than it is today. Being in the trenches with Child Protective Services will show one just how stressful it is for a child to be raised these days in traditional "one man and one woman" families. ...and there is no end in sight.

I'm happy you were allowed to grow and flourish in your family. Yet that is your singular experience. Mine was not so nice and I grew up in the traditional Mom(female) Dad(male) with 2 kids family system. It was rigid and filled with violence because they were taught that was how you raised a child by their parents who were unhappy but stayed "till death do you part".

I can appreciate your sentiment and wanting to hold on to a beautiful Ideal. What would help to contribute to solving the issue of Marriage and Family - is for people to share the characteristics of a good family life to people who would listen and shape policy.

Unfortunately - that does not occur - and we continue to flounder and the children suffer.

 

[Barnabas]

What's missing here is validation.
If I say to you "I don't like this!"
You should say to me, if you disagree, "I see your point, but I feel this way." or "Yes, I agree with this part, but I feel strongly about this and this is my concern."

Reading through the 28 pages and months of discourse only shows this never happened. Questions are put out there and never answered directly.
A wonderful exercise in frustration.

I backed out once I saw the argument
was nothing but spewing hate by an old minded bigoted lonely sole with no life or friends worth having. Just felt sorry for the freak. Then again I don't.

I'd like to point out that your last statement invalidates your point.

 

[Kgal]

Ultimately it will come down to Love - just as [MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION] mentioned.

We must come together and recognize we all want the SAME thing.

A chance to have loving relationships - with each other - with our spouses - with our children - and with our families.

So I ask you: How can we come to recognize that in each other?

 

[benny]

[MENTION=5297]Neverwhere[/MENTION] - This makes me think of that quote... "You can choose your friends, you can't choose your family."

It never sat right with me, and you stated exactly why!

Because, you absolutely CAN choose your family. I know why it says what it does, but still. You can.

When I was a teenager feeling isolated from my family because of their views on homosexuality, there was a song I liked by Vanessa Carlton with the following lines: "And who's to say we're not good enough? And who's to say that this is not our love? Mother, don't tell me friends are the ones that I'll lose, 'cause they'd bleed before you. Sometimes family are the ones you choose. It's too late now, I hold onto this life I've found. ... You and I, packing up my room, we feel alright, but we're not welcome. Soon we'll be driving, 'cause they don't know who we are." It really hit close to home.

As a young gay man who might someday like to get married and raise children, this issue is very important to me. I should have the right to marry the person I love, just like anybody else. And if the legal union between a straight couple is called marriage, to call the union of a gay couple anything else is a slap in the face. It says "your relationships are not like our relationships, you don't deserve what we have."

I don't like debating at all, especially in situations like this where it's not going to accomplish anything and nobody is going to change their mind. But I feel the need to chime in...because, as others have mentioned, for me this isn't some theoretical point of discussion, it's my reality. You want what's best for the children? What about the children like me who grow up in constant fear and misery because they think they're going to burn in hell for all eternity because they're gay? The children who are terrified that their parents aren't going to love them anymore when they find out? The children whose parents really DON'T love them anymore when they find out. The children who commit suicide because of the terrible lack of acceptance. The young people like Tyler Clementi, a gay freshman at MY university who jumped off the George Washington Bridge after being made to feel completely humiliated and ashamed.

What about all of those children? When you promote inequality between LGBT people and heterosexual people (Keyword: people. We're all people.), you're sending a hideous message. You're saying "you are less than me." And you're doing a lot of damage.

 

[Saru Inc]

When I was a teenager feeling isolated from my family because of their views on homosexuality, there was a song I liked by Vanessa Carlton with the following lines: "And who's to say we're not good enough? And who's to say that this is not our love? Mother, don't tell me friends are the ones that I'll lose, 'cause they'd bleed before you. Sometimes family are the ones you choose. It's too late now, I hold onto this life I've found. ... You and I, packing up my room, we feel alright, but we're not welcome. Soon we'll be driving, 'cause they don't know who we are." It really hit close to home.

As a young gay man who might someday like to get married and raise children, this issue is very important to me. I should have the right to marry the person I love, just like anybody else. And if the legal union between a straight couple is called marriage, to call the union of a gay couple anything else is a slap in the face. It says "your relationships are not like our relationships, you don't deserve what we have."

I don't like debating at all, especially in situations like this where it's not going to accomplish anything and nobody is going to change their mind. But I feel the need to chime in...because, as others have mentioned, for me this isn't some theoretical point of discussion, it's my reality. You want what's best for the children? What about the children like me who grow up in constant fear and misery because they think they're going to burn in hell for all eternity because they're gay? The children who are terrified that their parents aren't going to love them anymore when they find out? The children whose parents really DON'T love them anymore when they find out. The children who commit suicide because of the terrible lack of acceptance. The young people like Tyler Clementi, a gay freshman at MY university who jumped off the George Washington Bridge after being made to feel completely humiliated and ashamed.

What about all of those children? When you promote inequality between LGBT people and heterosexual people (Keyword: people. We're all people.), you're sending a hideous message. You're saying "you are less than me." And you're doing a lot of damage.

I used to believe simarly, that we deserve all the rights of straight people. But then I thought about something... We do have all the rights of straight people. There is only one arena in which we don't "have the rights," which is marriage. Which, as Flavus pointed out, was made in order to procreate. I know many people who think everyone who marries should at least try and have kids. Now, I don't prescribe to that same philosophy, I believe if you don't think you'd be a good parent, its ok not to have kids.

However, gay people. Hello? Why not get our own thing? While yes marriage is the standard way of doing things, it in itself is just a term. There's nothing special about the term in the sense that why can't our civil unions be just as good as marriage? If I'm marrying my husband, I'm obviously not going to be able to impregnate him... So pershaps we don't fit under the term marriage, does that make our love any less valued? Absolutely not. Its just different.


Because no matter how much gays and lez want to say we're all the same, which keep in mind I usually agree with, in this case we're different. We cannot have kids on our own. So maybe we shouldn't be given the term marriage, but in a 100 years, why can't civil unions have just as much importance? I use to feel sorry for all the gay kids who killed themselves all over the years. Not that I feel any less bad anymore, but a gay kid dying because some kid called him a faggot, and a black kid dying because some kid called him a nigger are all the same to me: a tragedy. We can have equal rights, and not have equal names. We're not kids people, I say this over and over, and now I believe it less and less each time. We're not kids. Who cares if they have that name, we can have our own.

All the hate and lack of empathy on here makes me feel sad. This issue is really important and personal for some people. These are real people that we are communicating with, not just text on screen

Exactly, I regret my sardonic and careless tone earlier on in the topic. I don't think this topic should be closed due to flaming, but I think a lot of people need to rethink their priorities when it's wrong to stand up for what you believe. I can't say this enough, calling someone a bigot, even in the name of righteous ness, but then refusing to hear them speak, no matter how much you despise their words makes you a bigot also. That's the real issue with the way bigot is used now, that an ignorance. All they do is promote more bigotry and ignorance.


[MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION] is a grown man with his own life, his own dreams, and his own world view. Even if he doesn't want me to marry someone, heck even if he doesn't think I was born this way it doesn't matter. I respect his rights,nf that is the only way I myself will be respected. You cannot just shove someone in the mud without getting your own clothes dirty. You might all think he's this horrible person, but why? Because he has a different opinion? Don't you guys get it? You can't just say "WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS WRONG!!" because why are you right? ESPECIALLY over something so subjective as human rights. All people are created equal. However, its not so cut and paste after we are created. And what I mean is, even if everyone is created equal, not everyone is going to believe that, and if we are to treat all people equal then we must respect them and ourselves. I'm not saying agree with him, of course you don't have to. But he's made several points that he's adhered to in his stand against gay marriage. What is so wrong with that? To stand up for what he believes in? And I swear to God if someone quotes this passage and says "oh so its ok for a racist to be proud of hating other races?" Intolerance of intolerance is still intolerance. Geez people, I'm quite shocked grown ass adults are throwing around childish things all over this topic. This is why I can very rarely ever take the INFJ forums seriously. Its not because people believe that they were a chinese emporer in a past life, or because they can talk to trees, or even because half the people believe they are psychic in one way or another.

Its because there are so many people here who preach that they are open minded, yet become hate filled and "bigoted" towards anyone who dare believe differently. You guys (the forum) really need to look inside yourselves and see what you really believe about bigotry, and ignorance, and whatever labels you guys create.


On a less serious note, to those who live in America, Flavus is in Australia. He's not going to vote against it if it ever comes to that... Because he's in Australia. Take a chill pilll and go walk outside for 30 mins and post about it so you can get some reps.

 

[Rferraris]

I'd like to point out that your last statement invalidates your point.

Nahh. Don't agree. In the absence of validation there is little point. So what's lost if you call a an ass an ass. There wasn't a conversation to begin with.
So I don't agree with you, buy maybe you see why.

 

[just me]

Please don't think I was giving sympathy. I was pointing out people are wanting to change something to meet their needs. Want to be different? Why feel below the other guy? Be different. Realize it IS different. Maybe it needs a different name.

I personally feel it impossible for two of the same sex to get married. I don't let my feelings belittle myself. I don't hold myself better than anyone here. Those are my feelings. Those are my thoughts. They may be "engendered" in me from many things other than the imprinting of my parents and my being raised.

Ever think someone would take it as an assault on their beliefs? Morals and ethics? That doesn't seem to bother people that might bother me. It is a touchy situation, and my feelings are important to me.....just like everyone else's.

Know a guy raised by two women. He talks like women. He acts like women. Did someone miss this? Yes, he likes guys. Maybe that was someone's intentions the whole time.....for him to be like them.

I wish this was not an issue, but it is. There will always be children made fun of because of it. Love you guys, but I care very little for most surveys. Just call it something else. Maybe you should change some more of the dictionary.