Fruiteloop
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Love
lots of people have love in them
I do not see how that makes people self serving only
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Love
lots of people have love in them
I do not see how that makes people self serving only
QuickTwist
Permanent Fixture
That woman is a heretic. I do not think she is a Christian at all.
QuickTwist
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We are asking what kind of love it is. Is it selfless love, or self-love?
Fruiteloop
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QuickTwist
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Let's review...
1. Our greatest example in Christianity is Christ.
2. The greatest act of love Christ displayed is dying on the cross for us.
3. Christ's death on the cross was a selfless love.
C. Christian's highest example is selfless love.
I want to go with the highest example as much as I possibly can.
Does this post make more sense now?
QuickTwist
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This is from the Didache, which is a document that talks about what the earliest Church believed and the conduct of Christians. This is written approximately 70 AD.
"And when the apostle goes away, let him take nothing but bread until he lodges; but if he ask money, he is a false prophet."
She is a false prophet.
Fruiteloop
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I understand what is being said I just disgree that the bare minimum of self care should be ignored.
No one is just going to just unnecessarily die trying to help people. Bills need to be payed food needs to be eaten.
Maybe if you are mother Teresa, I don't know. People don't live that way.
My mother buys lotto tickets so she can save the animals one day when she wins big. It's not practice but she cares about the animals.
So nothing you said is wrong in the way you think I am saying it is wrong. Serving others is fine. But I need to eat and not starve to death.
QuickTwist
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I have nothing against making sure you can eat. That is not what the discussion is about to me. To me, it is about what is "BEST" not about what is "ALLOWED."
Jesus said, "Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect."
We aim to be as similar to Christ as possible. Obviously, Jesus still ate food, so that is not what this is about.
What I am against is a kind of preoccupation with yourself. That is an idea that is nowhere in the Bible.
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Yes, this.
meowzician
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Amein, sister. I can think of nothing holier than becoming the very best "me" that God calls me to be.
John K
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@QuickTwist @Fruiteloop
I'm very late to this conversation, but just a quick comment on self love. The two greatest commandments are these from Matthew 22:37-40 -
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
It's the second commandment that's the one I want to pick up on - Jesus expresses this in a way that is quite interesting. I have come across a number of folks in my many years who have a deep lack of love for themselves and are crippled when it comes to loving others as Jesus commands.
I think the problem is that the word 'love' is over-used in the English language. In this context, self-love is a whole universe away from self-indulgence. Our existence in this world is a loan from God and we don't own our own bodies and souls - the parable of the talents is at the heart of what I mean: we are required to take care of ourselves body, mind and soul in the right way and in the right proportions, and to make a return on what we have been loaned. This seems to me to be what self-love is all about - and it is in the measure that we can do this that we can love others to at least the same degree.
It's best to keep this sort of thing simple because there are some nasty snares that lead away from fulfilling this commandment but which are are dressed up in the clothes of loving others. Some of us are capable of needlessly wrecking our own mental or physical health, or damaging our spirit, by what we think is an act of self-sacrifice for others - it often happens in families or between lovers, so usually where there is a deep relationship. This in my book is morally out of order, particularly in light of that commandment, because you can love no-one and no thing well if you fall over such a cliff - it's easier to do than many think.
I'm very late to this conversation, but just a quick comment on self love. The two greatest commandments are these from Matthew 22:37-40 -
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
It's the second commandment that's the one I want to pick up on - Jesus expresses this in a way that is quite interesting. I have come across a number of folks in my many years who have a deep lack of love for themselves and are crippled when it comes to loving others as Jesus commands.
I think the problem is that the word 'love' is over-used in the English language. In this context, self-love is a whole universe away from self-indulgence. Our existence in this world is a loan from God and we don't own our own bodies and souls - the parable of the talents is at the heart of what I mean: we are required to take care of ourselves body, mind and soul in the right way and in the right proportions, and to make a return on what we have been loaned. This seems to me to be what self-love is all about - and it is in the measure that we can do this that we can love others to at least the same degree.
It's best to keep this sort of thing simple because there are some nasty snares that lead away from fulfilling this commandment but which are are dressed up in the clothes of loving others. Some of us are capable of needlessly wrecking our own mental or physical health, or damaging our spirit, by what we think is an act of self-sacrifice for others - it often happens in families or between lovers, so usually where there is a deep relationship. This in my book is morally out of order, particularly in light of that commandment, because you can love no-one and no thing well if you fall over such a cliff - it's easier to do than many think.
QuickTwist
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About the verses you quoted...
The way I like to say it is that Jesus was not teaching people how to love themselves (more), which is a great sin in the US today. Rather, the grounding of the argument that Jesus gives assumes that we already love ourselves. So, it is not a moral teaching on how to love yourself more. It is a moral teaching on how to love God and love others more because Jesus just takes it as a given that people love themselves, as he does not argue for that point, but assumes it. In our culture today, we get bombarded, quite honestly, with "you deserve it," etc. without considering why you deserve it. If you probe into this, it is that you are a good person. That is why you deserve it. But Christ says to deny yourself. Do not make excuses about how you need to reward yourself for taking out the trash. But this culture does not understand this because they are literally in the lake as fish and asking where the water is. It is all around. Many advertisements are built on the concept of self-indulgence. That is the water in the sea. And we claim we don't love ourselves enough. Ha!
just me
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Most all people need money. Asking for it does not make one a false prophet. A false prophet is defined in Scripture by lying in God's name, not by needing support. "The laborer is worthy of his hire" (Luke 10:7 KJV). This emphasizes the principle that those who work in God’s service deserve to be supported and cared for by those they minister to. Even Paul accepted from the churches he preached to.
Saying something like "Thus saith the Lord" or "God said" when He did not say it is false prophecy. Using "God said in the Bible" if quoting properly is not false prophecy. Stating something is God's is not false prophesy, like the Strait of Hormuz is God's. God has the final say. God formed the river in His own way. I am NOT debating, just sharing. I like clarity. There is a very big difference in claiming international boundaries and claiming ownership of such waters. The waters are God's to serve the people of the earth.
But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him. – The Didache, not the Bible. This still does not accuse someone as a false prophet.
Saying something like "Thus saith the Lord" or "God said" when He did not say it is false prophecy. Using "God said in the Bible" if quoting properly is not false prophecy. Stating something is God's is not false prophesy, like the Strait of Hormuz is God's. God has the final say. God formed the river in His own way. I am NOT debating, just sharing. I like clarity. There is a very big difference in claiming international boundaries and claiming ownership of such waters. The waters are God's to serve the people of the earth.
But whoever says in the Spirit, Give me money, or something else, you shall not listen to him. But if he tells you to give for others’ sake who are in need, let no one judge him. – The Didache, not the Bible. This still does not accuse someone as a false prophet.
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just me
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I, too, in my younger years, questioned that about loving myself...compared to loving others. My take way back then was I should love others more than I love myself. Over time, seasoned with teachings, understanding, and experience: I love myself. Why? Because this: I Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? KJV This is to assure believers of their spiritual worth, not only the physical. The word "temple" is used to describe a place where God lives, holiness, and a part of the church (which is the entire body of Christ). The verse has other meanings tied to it, but I used it to reference why I must love myself. Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit coming.
ErikAlberto
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I have a sense of what you're getting at. It was something I wrestled with too during my years as a Christian.
Your post reminded me of a book that was very influential in my own journey with Christianity: The Pursuit of Holiness by Jerry Bridges (1978).
meowzician
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I'd love it if you would share what you learned from this book.
ErikAlberto
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It was almost 35 years ago that I read the book—I was 13 at the time. While the particulars of the book don’t feel very accessible to me anymore, I can say that the perspective presented there inspired a deeper and more intentional commitment to my faith, at the time.
It was influential largely because while I was “committed to following Jesus”, it was an initiation into theology. And discovering theology lit up parts of my brain that I didn’t know were there.
Anyways, as best as I can recall, the themes centered around the holiness of God, the grace of God through redemption, and the importance of obedience, discipline, and integrity.
I mentioned the book because I thought it would likely align well with @QuickTwist’s framework.
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QuickTwist
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Don't take this the wrong way, but it feels like I am getting a second-hand sweater...
ErikAlberto
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That made me chuckle.
No, but seriously, if you gave me the name of a band that ended up resonating with me because you had a sense of what would resonate with me, even though you no longer listened to them yourself, I’d be glad to have discovered music I enjoyed and glad to feel seen by you.
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