Rape prevention and female self-defense

[bamf]

mf: regarding your original post.

I regard the systematic, ideologically guided, deprogramming of all young males away from male stereotypes to be a worse crime than the relatively rare crime of rape against women, because of whom the crime is commited against - children.

I'm not necessarily saying that we need to deprogram male children. You're right, that would be completely wrong. However...

To me, it appears as if we force many boys to fit into this stereotypical view of men. That if you're going to be a man, you have to act like the stereotype. You have to be violent, you have to be aggressive, and you have to be dominate over women. Our society is set up in such a way that a white man (who I am myself) is the ideal person. Yes, women have gained rights, but how do we make the world even more fair for women? We treat them as if they were white males. They don't get these preferences because they are human, they're given these preferences because they aren't white men. To be a man, is to have power.

I'm not saying we need to get rid of things that perpetuate male stereotypes, but if we're going to show them to kids (boys in particular), we need to educate them at the same time. If we let Rambo and James Bond play father for our boys, we're going to end up with little Rambos and James Bonds.

I'm not saying we need to 'change' boys, but rather educate them in the differences between men and women (because there are plenty), and erase the stereotypes that men are dominate over women.

Now, most well-adjusted men in the world (be they the stereotypical male or not) will not rape a women. So where do those who do, come from? I couldn't tell you the answer, but I'd speculate that it's men who've grown up as boys trying to perpetuate the male stereotype. They want the power, they want to be dominate over women, but for some reason they aren't. So to get that power, they rape.

Rape is a crime of power. We teach our boys that men are powerful, and dominate to women. That is inherently wrong. I'm not saying to get ride of violence, James Bond, or anything like that. I grew up playing with toy guns and GI Joes as a kid, and I've turned out fine. The problem is, not everyone does. And because of that, people get hurt.

Educate men on rape prevention. Teaching women self-defense is just reinforcing the idea that it's the woman's fault if they get raped, because she didn't prevent it.

 

[bamf]

HAHA, MF got misunderstood??? SAY IT AINT SO!

That means you did too!
The horror!!!!

 

[Billy]

The best way to prevent women from being raped is to train them to use a handgun and let them carry them.

The war against boys - feminism tirade is getting old, rape prevention aimed at boys? yeah brilliant idea, lets just teach the wolves theyre not supposed to eat sheep too and let the sheep remain ignorant, sounds great.

 

[bamf]

The best way to prevent women from being raped is to train them to use a handgun and let them carry them.

The war against boys - feminism tirade is getting old, rape prevention aimed at boys? yeah brilliant idea, lets just teach the wolves theyre not supposed to eat sheep too and let the sheep remain ignorant, sounds great.

So it's the woman's fault for not preventing rape?

So it's inherit to men to rape?

 

[acd]

I understood what you proposed, MF, to be that we need to deprogram boys and even girls from gender roles.. Allow boys to express their emotions and whatnot... To stop trying to mold children into what tradition dictates..


I don't believe you were talking about brainwashing boys into kowtowing to females... Or brainwashing boys into believing they are inherently violent, and then teaching them to control those impulses. I don't see how what you propose is taking away from the dignity of any individual.

But anyway, I'd say it's not violent movies or videogames or macho role models that instill violence... It's the way children are brought up. If a child lives in abusive household in which their family and also they themselves are dehumanized, they will only continue the cycle.

So, how do you end domestic violence? Because I think that is necessary in preventing rape from occurring.

Rape is about power. It's about violently overpowering someone physically AND mentally. What are the things that instill powerlessness in people? Those things need to be combatted.



And Flavus, I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly. Please, correct me if I am wrong. Are you saying that an assault to the body is not as injurous as that of an assault to the mind?

I don't see how you can separate the two. When person is raped, their inner peace is destroyed--their mind and the way they perceive themselves and the world will forever be changed.

As for punishment for sex offenders... I personally think they should be jailed for the rest of their lives without parole. Free up more space in prison by releasing drug offenders. They get longer sentences than the sex offenders, usually for chrissakes.

 

[BenW]

The best way to prevent women from being raped is to train them to use a handgun and let them carry them.

I for one , grew up around guns, and believe in the 2nd amendment strongly. A woman who carries a gun and knows how to use it won't ever be raped, or at least her chances of being raped will be very very unlikely.

This.

 

[Billy]

So it's the woman's fault for not preventing rape?

So it's inherit to men to rape?

You seem to think that all men are rapists, what good will teaching men not to rape women do, when rape is already illegal and highly understood to be a terrible thing? If someone is going to rape someone or have the propensity of being a rapist no amount of training is going to fix that. I went through the Dare program in 5th grade and was dealing pot at school by 7th grade.

 

[acd]

Yeah. We know that. Women who can defend themselves be it with guns or nunchuku.. whatever.. are less likely to be raped..
But that's not really the point of the thread, now is it? What things about our culture would need to change so that women don't have to train themselves to overcome the inevitable threat of a rapist?

You seem to think that all men are rapists, what good will teaching men not to rape women do, when rape is already illegal and highly understood to be a terrible thing? If someone is going to rape someone or have the propensity of being a rapist no amount of training is going to fix that. I went through the Dare program in 5th grade and was dealing pot at school by 7th grade.

He does not seem to think all men are rapists. It's just considered more prevalent that rape victims are women. Yeah, rape is illegal and considered horrible.. But it wasn't too long ago that certain states refused to acknowledge spousal rape..

 

[Billy]

De-programming boys form acting like boys is bullshit. And its bad, its why Boys do so poorly in school compared to women, school is a model of what feminists have wrought with thier gender modificating theories. Read the book "The war against boys" by Christina Hoff Summers for a good does of reality. Boys who resist tend to be drugged, its disgusting.

 

[Billy]

Yeah. We know that. Women who can defend themselves be it with guns or nunchuku.. whatever.. are less likely to be raped..
But that's not really the point of the thread, now is it? What things about our culture would need to change so that women don't have to train themselves to overcome the inevitable threat of a rapist?

For one thing we would have to evolve, not happening in any time soon so it really is moot to try and figure that one out.

 

[acd]

For one thing we would have to evolve, not happening in any time soon so it really is moot to try and figure that one out.

I don't think it's pointless to try and figure it out. And evolve how? Physically? Yes. We're helpless to that I suppose...

But socially? It's entirely possible if enough people care and do not just give in to being apathetic.

 

[Billy]

I don't think it's pointless to try and figure it out. And evolve how? Physically? Yes. We're helpless to that I suppose...

But socially? It's entirely possible if enough people care and do not just give in to being apathetic.

the problem with rape isnt apathy, its aggressive people who cannot be controlled. Short of putting a shock collar on every human you arent going to fix this problem. Rape will always exist like murder and hatred.

 

[acd]

the problem with rape isnt apathy, its aggressive people who cannot be controlled. Short of putting a shock collar on every human you arent going to fix this problem. Rape will always exist like murder and hatred.

I didn't mean to imply that the problem of rape is apathy. I was trying to say that social evolution is possible if people do not resign themselves to apathy.

How do you know it will always exist? Really? With those words, you're normalizing it. Shrugging it off. It comes from something, and something can be changed to stop it. It's a horrible tumor growing from some social consciousness.

Think of all the horrible things that humans have done to one another in a given time period. At one point in Western civilization, it was considered necessary to kill in the name of religion. As people became more educated, now to kill for one's religion in our culture is considered immoral. (Burning of witches and all of that rubbish..)

Things do change.

 

[Billy]

I didn't mean to imply that the problem of rape is apathy. I was trying to say that social evolution is possible if people do not resign themselves to slip into apathy.

How do you know it will always exist? Really? With those words, you're normalizing it. Shrugging it off. It comes from something, and something can be changed to stop it. It's a horrible tumor growing from some social consciousness.

Think of all the horrible things that humans have done to one another in a given time period. At one point in Western civilization, it was considered necessary to kill in the name of religion. As people became more educated, now to kill for one's religion in our culture is considered immoral. (Burning of witches and all of that rubbish..)

Things do change.

Nothing changes, humans today are the same roughly as humans from 10,000 years ago and our civilization is built on our humanity, and part of our humanity is the physical chemical impulses we have, unfortunately you cannot stop someone from being born who is going to be destined to be a rapist. Its an inborn quality and only partially a social one. Rape, like all violence stems from the R complex of our brains that we inherited from the reptiles via evolution. Even love and emotions are just portions of our brains, we can no sooner make people stop raping, as we can stop them from falling in love with other people.

 

[arbygil]

I personally applaud mf for at least *understanding* that the onus is on the rapist. All he's saying is the majority of rapes are committed by men, but that doesn't mean all men are rapists (or potential rapists). What helps, though, is that men understand this and respect women in this same way.

Women are taught every day to "protect themselves" by other women (and men) but men are rarely taught how to respect women and treat them with dignity by other men.

I recently read a story about a man who went into the schools teaching tolerance to boys in high school (article here: http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-22-fall-2002/it-takes-man). What's unique about the story was it didn't diminish the boys or make them something they're not; it just helped them think differently about women.

The key question he posed was this:

"Picture the woman you care about the most — your mother, a sister, an aunt, a female friend — being assaulted by a man," [Falconer] says. "Imagine a third person in the scene, a bystander who sees what’s going on, is in a position to do something about what’s happening to the woman you care about. But the bystander watches and walks away."

Falconer pauses, then asks: "How does it make you feel?"

And the boys of course felt angry and upset and frustrated. Then Falconer ran the point home with this:

"Every woman you see on the street, every woman you see in the hallway, has somebody who feels about her the way you feel about the woman in your life."

That story, that image helps boys realize that they needs to treat every female with respect. The story did not demean them; it did not take away their dignity, nor did it "reprogram" them into being less of a man. It just helped them consider the situation a different way.

And education like that is what it takes to destroy rape, racism, sexism, and so forth in my opinion.

 

[Billy]

I personally applaud mf for at least *understanding* that the onus is on the rapist. All he's saying is the majority of rapes are committed by men, but that doesn't mean all men are rapists (or potential rapists). What helps, though, is that men understand this and respect women in this same way.

Women are taught every day to "protect themselves" by other women (and men) but men are rarely taught how to respect women and treat them with dignity by other men.

I recently read a story about a man who went into the schools teaching tolerance to boys in high school (article here: http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-22-fall-2002/it-takes-man). What's unique about the story was it didn't diminish the boys or make them something they're not; it just helped them think differently about women.

The key question he posed was this:

And the boys of course felt angry and upset and frustrated. Then Falconer ran the point home with this:


That story, that image helps boys realize that they needs to treat every female with respect. The story did not demean them; it did not take away their dignity, nor did it "reprogram" them into being less of a man. It just helped them consider the situation a different way.

And education like that is what it takes to destroy rape, racism, sexism, and so forth in my opinion.

Yeah except he was preaching to the choir, I am sure that scenario wouldnt have much weight to a rapist and it would fall on deaf ears, because rapists like serial killers tend to have very very little conscious to keep them from doing things.

 

[bamf]

Billy, you have still yet to explain why it is the woman's responsibility to prevent rape.
Power mentalities most definitely can, and do, change. Think ethinical differences, and how far the mentalities regarding the differences have come. Ethinic diversity is gaining respect, homosexuals are gaining respect, women are gaining respect.

How is it certain (which you seem to be) that rape education directed at boys wouldn't help decrease rape? I'm not outlining the program, so you can't call it akin to DARE.

I've never said we need to deprogram boys. We simply need to stop forcing them into a mold. A mold that can (I'm not saying it always does) give the impression that men hold power over women.

 

[bamf]

Yeah except he was preaching to the choir, I am sure that scenario wouldnt have much weight to a rapist and it would fall on deaf ears, because rapists like serial killers tend to have very very little conscious to keep them from doing things.

What is the common age for a rapist?

I'm talking about educating boys (as in kids), not already proven rapists. That would most likely be a lost cause.

 

[bamf]

I personally applaud mf for at least *understanding* that the onus is on the rapist. All he's saying is the majority of rapes are committed by men, but that doesn't mean all men are rapists (or potential rapists). What helps, though, is that men understand this and respect women in this same way.

Women are taught every day to "protect themselves" by other women (and men) but men are rarely taught how to respect women and treat them with dignity by other men.

I recently read a story about a man who went into the schools teaching tolerance to boys in high school (article here: http://www.tolerance.org/magazine/number-22-fall-2002/it-takes-man). What's unique about the story was it didn't diminish the boys or make them something they're not; it just helped them think differently about women.

The key question he posed was this:

And the boys of course felt angry and upset and frustrated. Then Falconer ran the point home with this:


That story, that image helps boys realize that they needs to treat every female with respect. The story did not demean them; it did not take away their dignity, nor did it "reprogram" them into being less of a man. It just helped them consider the situation a different way.

And education like that is what it takes to destroy rape, racism, sexism, and so forth in my opinion.

Well said!

 

[Billy]

Billy, you have still yet to explain why it is the woman's responsibility to prevent rape.
Power mentalities most definitely can, and do, change. Think ethinical differences, and how far the mentalities regarding the differences have come. Ethinic diversity is gaining respect, homosexuals are gaining respect, women are gaining respect.

How is it certain (which you seem to be) that rape education directed at boys wouldn't help decrease rape? I'm not outlining the program, so you can't call it akin to DARE.

I've never said we need to deprogram boys. We simply need to stop forcing them into a mold. A mold that can (I'm not saying it always does) give the impression that men hold power over women.

Women have to defend themselves against rape for the same reason I have to defend myself against murder, ultimately we must be responsible for our own personal safety. The collective cannot solve and enforce rules at all times, as such the ultimate responsibility comes to rest on our own shoulders.