Rape prevention and female self-defense

[Billy]

What is the common age for a rapist?

I'm talking about educating boys (as in kids), not already proven rapists. That would most likely be a lost cause.

Again, boys will all sit around and think, hey im not a rapist! and 99.9% of them arent, but that 1 kid without a conscious who knows its wrong to rape and who isn't full grown and in full command of his mental abilities that comes with age and physically powerful male body he will inherent is sitting not realizing that he has the capacity to rape, when he really does. And no amount of "training" is going to make him have a conscious. Or thier conscious will be twisted in such a way that they dont see it as rape. You cannot fix those people. If you believe you can then you are an unrealistic idealist and your ideas are flawed because you are not factoring in reality which is where we all have to live when your methods fail.

 

[Crow]

The following may be appropriate to the thread.
It is a reply to a Letter To The Editor in my local paper.
----------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Schwartz:
I almost didn't write this: your own words said it so well. But, I just couldn't resist...
I hardly know where to begin; but I will, by informing you: I never "insinuate" anything, ever.
I say exactly what I mean. When I say "violence affects only a tiny percentage of us", that is what I mean.
I did the math on your figures, allowing you all the leeway I could, and found the percentage of violent incidents, both reported and unreported, to be less than 1% of the population. To me that says: "tiny". As to how unreported violence can be quantified at all, well, I have no idea, and no interest.
You claim: "my lifelong experience with feminists has taught me they are far more spontaneous and human than any other group I know": I suggest you might want to get about more, and see how "human" other humans are. And spontaneous too. Try asking people what they think about feminists in general, and you might get some illuminating answers. I haven't met anyone in years that sees feminists as anything close to wonderful. I have never heard anyone call them spontaneous or human, either.
But now: the real wonder of weirdness: "Men should feel guilt for their gender..." Wow. Now that says things that seem surreal in the extreme. 50% of the planet should feel guilt? For being men?
But wait: that's not enough guilt: "...Women...ought also to feel guilt".
Let's see: thats the entire population of the planet. That should do it!
But wait: "We can work to better ourselves if we feel guilty". Because that will help prevent us from being: "immobilized by fear, anger and denial"...etc.
Golly, Mr. Schwartz: forgive my asking this, but what planet do you live on?
Since when did guilt do anyone a bit of good? Even the 1% of the guilty are not exactly motivated to better themselves through guilt. Let alone the guiltless 99%.
Maybe I know nothing. Maybe I need more guilt to make me understand your perspective. Maybe my wife does too, and everybody else I know, who prefer to live their lives unburdened by the baseless guilt you would bury them under.
But then: that was the purpose of the advertising campaign, wasn't it? To cause the innocent to accept a burden of useless, unfair guilt, and delude them into believing that violence against women was right up there with global warming and the economic meltdown.
Too bad you spent a "lifetime experiencing feminists": It seems such a waste. Other than that, what have you produced, apart from a mountain of useless guilt?
--------------------------------

There it is.
There are men who hate being men, just as there are women who hate being women.
They ridicule and try to outlaw the natural behaviour of their gender because they themselves can not manifest it.
Go scare somebody else.
You don't scare me.

 

[bamf]

Again, boys will all sit around and think, hey im not a rapist! and 99.9% of them arent, but that 1 kid without a conscious who knows its wrong to rape and who isn't full grown and in full command of his mental abilities that comes with age and physically powerful male body he will inherent is sitting not realizing that he has the capacity to rape, when he really does. And no amount of "training" is going to make him have a conscious. Or thier conscious will be twisted in such a way that they dont see it as rape. You cannot fix those people. If you believe you can then you are an unrealistic idealist and your ideas are flawed because you are not factoring in reality which is where we all have to live when your methods fail.

You have no more proof that it won't work, than I have proof that it will.

Answer me this: is it fair for women to be expected to prevent rape? Is it fair for someone who is blackmailed, to be expected to prevent blackmail?

 

[Billy]

The following may be appropriate to the thread.
It is a reply to a Letter To The Editor in my local paper.
----------------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Schwartz:
I almost didn't write this: your own words said it so well. But, I just couldn't resist...
I hardly know where to begin; but I will, by informing you: I never "insinuate" anything, ever.
I say exactly what I mean. When I say "violence affects only a tiny percentage of us", that is what I mean.
I did the math on your figures, allowing you all the leeway I could, and found the percentage of violent incidents, both reported and unreported, to be less than 1% of the population. To me that says: "tiny". As to how unreported violence can be quantified at all, well, I have no idea, and no interest.
You claim: "my lifelong experience with feminists has taught me they are far more spontaneous and human than any other group I know": I suggest you might want to get about more, and see how "human" other humans are. And spontaneous too. Try asking people what they think about feminists in general, and you might get some illuminating answers. I haven't met anyone in years that sees feminists as anything close to wonderful. I have never heard anyone call them spontaneous or human, either.
But now: the real wonder of weirdness: "Men should feel guilt for their gender..." Wow. Now that says things that seem surreal in the extreme. 50% of the planet should feel guilt? For being men?
But wait: that's not enough guilt: "...Women...ought also to feel guilt".
Let's see: thats the entire population of the planet. That should do it!
But wait: "We can work to better ourselves if we feel guilty". Because that will help prevent us from being: "immobilized by fear, anger and denial"...etc.
Golly, Mr. Schwartz: forgive my asking this, but what planet do you live on?
Since when did guilt do anyone a bit of good? Even the 1% of the guilty are not exactly motivated to better themselves through guilt. Let alone the guiltless 99%.
Maybe I know nothing. Maybe I need more guilt to make me understand your perspective. Maybe my wife does too, and everybody else I know, who prefer to live their lives unburdened by the baseless guilt you would bury them under.
But then: that was the purpose of the advertising campaign, wasn't it? To cause the innocent to accept a burden of useless, unfair guilt, and delude them into believing that violence against women was right up there with global warming and the economic meltdown.
Too bad you spent a "lifetime experiencing feminists": It seems such a waste. Other than that, what have you produced, apart from a mountain of useless guilt?
--------------------------------

There it is.
There are men who hate being men, just as there are women who hate being women.
They ridicule and try to outlaw the natural behaviour of their gender because they themselves can not manifest it.
Go scare somebody else.
You don't scare me.

the thing that scares me is how all those gloria steinem clones go into child education and become teachers then try to make this madness ensue in school. I read this novel by Susan Hoff Summers called "the war against boys" I couldt believe half the shit that was going on. I knew what was happening from going through a public school but I didn't know why a lot of it was, and it makes sense. A lot of it is the intentional erasing of the male gender to "protect" women from men, but all it really does is destroy young boys and leave them isolated and confused in a society that's ready to cannibalize them.

And a guy with feelings like that is dangerous, men in general are dangerous especially a guy like that, if he snaps there is no telling who he is going to kill. Too bad it isnt Gloria Stienem.

 

[Billy]

You have no more proof that it won't work, than I have proof that it will.

Answer me this: is it fair for women to be expected to prevent rape? Is it fair for someone who is blackmailed, to be expected to prevent blackmail?

The FUCK does fairness have to do with reality?

 

[bamf]

The FUCK does fairness have to do with reality?

Why do you have to get so angry about this?

It has everything to do with reality. Why should we ignore an unfair society? Why should we allow unfair things to happen?
Why should we burden women with the prevention of rape, when they're the majority of the victims?

Why burden the victims?

Why the fuck did you have to scream fuck?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I'm not necessarily saying that we need to deprogram male children. You're right, that would be completely wrong. However...

To me, it appears as if we force many boys to fit into this stereotypical view of men. That if you're going to be a man, you have to act like the stereotype. You have to be violent, you have to be aggressive, and you have to be dominate over women. Our society is set up in such a way that a white man (who I am myself) is the ideal person. Yes, women have gained rights, but how do we make the world even more fair for women? We treat them as if they were white males. They don't get these preferences because they are human, they're given these preferences because they aren't white men. To be a man, is to have power.

I'm not saying we need to get rid of things that perpetuate male stereotypes, but if we're going to show them to kids (boys in particular), we need to educate them at the same time. If we let Rambo and James Bond play father for our boys, we're going to end up with little Rambos and James Bonds.

I'm not saying we need to 'change' boys, but rather educate them in the differences between men and women (because there are plenty), and erase the stereotypes that men are dominate over women.

Now, most well-adjusted men in the world (be they the stereotypical male or not) will not rape a women. So where do those who do, come from? I couldn't tell you the answer, but I'd speculate that it's men who've grown up as boys trying to perpetuate the male stereotype. They want the power, they want to be dominate over women, but for some reason they aren't. So to get that power, they rape.

Rape is a crime of power. We teach our boys that men are powerful, and dominate to women. That is inherently wrong. I'm not saying to get ride of violence, James Bond, or anything like that. I grew up playing with toy guns and GI Joes as a kid, and I've turned out fine. The problem is, not everyone does. And because of that, people get hurt.

Educate men on rape prevention. Teaching women self-defense is just reinforcing the idea that it's the woman's fault if they get raped, because she didn't prevent it.

In other words - don't let kids watch Television. - which would be beneficial on so many other respects.

 

[bamf]

In other words - don't let kids watch Television. - which would be beneficial on so many other respects.

Ha! The solution to all the world's problems!

(Glad to have you back, Aquila. Hope the season is treating you well.)

 

[Billy]

Why do you have to get so angry about this?

It has everything to do with reality. Why should we ignore an unfair society? Why should we allow unfair things to happen?

Why the fuck did you have to scream fuck?

For effect, fairness has nothing to do with reality, people who think its possible are deluded. Man kind is not noble, not fair and not kind, mankind is selfish and ignorant with occasional lapses in normality resulting in good actions. Expecting a flawed species to be fair is in itself unfair, it would be like expecting your pet golden retriever to know how to speak and do your homework. Some things are beyond our grasp.

I respect what you want to do, but I think logically speaking the method you want to try is not going to yield net benefit results. If you want to reduce the amount of rapes women go through, you should seek other options, weapon training with small hand guns specifically aimed at women is a good start, a positive ad campaign showing women being comfortable and well trained witih guns is a good start. I think you will change more likves that way then the way you want to which is never going to work.

Thats what reality has to do with this. Whether or not you want real results or just an value based ideological victory that doesn't change anything. I dont go for the latter myself, its just grandstanding and preening bullshit.

 

[Crow]

Why do you have to get so angry about this?

He is angry because you leave him no option in his mind.
There is an option, but it takes enormous self control,
and clearly this is an emotional issue.
I understand his anger completely.
He is attempting to use reason when the use of reason is made impossible.

 

[arbygil]

Not all women want to use handguns. And if you miss, or if he knocks it out of your hand, you're SOL. He can come up behind you, too - and what then? And what happens if you kill the wrong person, or if the person isn't going to rape you but you "thought" s/he was?

Hand guns might work in some ways, but if the rapist is gunning (sorry for the pun) for you, your little handgun won't do squat.

I say this: Let there be a variety of options. Handguns, sure, for those who want it. Self-defense, sure, if it's free and available. But teaching boys to respect women is a freebie. Some boys can be taught to respect women - or at the very least, they can stop another boy from doing the wrong thing if they're seeing it happen.

A serial killer, rapist, child molester, what have you will always go out and do stupid crap. But if you can help educate children who might be on the fence about these things (meaning: They think it might be fun, they want to see what happens, they have a conscience about it "but"...etc) I say go for it.

 

[Billy]

Not all women want to use handguns. And if you miss, or if he knocks it out of your hand, you're SOL. He can come up behind you, too - and what then?

Hand guns might work in some ways, but if the rapist is gunning (sorry for the pun) for you, your little handgun won't do squat.

I say this: Let there be a variety of options. Handguns, sure, for those who want it. Self-defense, sure, if it's free and available. But teaching boys to respect women is a freebie. Some boys can be taught to respect women - or at the very least, they can stop another boy from doing the wrong thing if they're seeing it happen.

A serial killer, rapist, child molester, what have you will always go out and do stupid crap. But if you can help educate children who might be on the fence about these things (meaning: They think it might be fun, they want to see what happens, they have a conscience about it "but"...etc) I say go for it.

I dont think educating children not to be violent really works, people will be what they are. I dont believe its all nurture I think much of it is nature.

And rape will happen no matter what we do, that is a fact. At least if we broaden womens minds about guns then we can reduce it. I think that would be more realistic in curbing rapes then any "training" we force all the young males to go through, young males get enough "training" all through our lives on how to act in society, and if that hasnt done anything I doubt this will either.

 

[Crow]

The really dangerous people out there (and in here) are the zealots who want to change everything and everyone so they can feel comfortable and safe.
When you look closely enough, you will always see the motive is selfishness.

The universe is not a safe place.
It is not a fair place.
But it is real.

 

[Billy]

The really dangerous people out there (and in here) are the zealots who want to change everything and everyone so they can feel comfortable and safe.
When you look closely enough, you will always see the motive is selfishness.

The universe is not a safe place.
It is not a fair place.
But it is real.

Thats what I am saying, there is no guarantee of safety in life, life is cruel and unfair, pretending it can be anything but that is ridiculous! Who is responsibile for your safety? You are! I am responsible for mine.

 

[bamf]

The really dangerous people out there (and in here) are the zealots who want to change everything and everyone so they can feel comfortable and safe.
When you look closely enough, you will always see the motive is selfishness.

The universe is not a safe place.
It is not a fair place.
But it is real.

So...who are the zealots in here?
You've got my curiosity at an all time high.

 

[acd]

How is it dangerous to suggest to people that, "Hey, wtf you guys--Maybe treating people with respect is a good idea!"?

A few of you seem so terrified and threatened by the suggestion that women should be treated with respect. And that's not scary?

No one \besides Billy has said anything about all men being inherently dangerous..

 

[arbygil]

I dont think educating children not to be violent really works, people will be what they are. I dont believe its all nurture I think much of it is nature.

And rape will happen no matter what we do, that is a fact. At least if we broaden womens minds about guns then we can reduce it. I think that would be more realistic in curbing rapes then any "training" we force all the young males to go through, young males get enough "training" all through our lives on how to act in society, and if that hasnt done anything I doubt this will either.

But do you see? We're "training women" as well. We have already trained women to be nervous around men, to expect the worst from them, and to expect that they're going to rape us if we're going home at night. What's the difference? And even in all the training we're given it hasn't significantly reduced the rape numbers. Women *have* been trained, to your gender's detriment. If you want to know why a woman might cross the street when they see another guy walking the same path at night, you have rape training on her end to thank for that.

We all get "trained" whether we like it or not. And it's nice when someone starts recognizing that hey, maybe there's something I can do to help rather than assuming it's all shit-all in a hand basket.

I guarantee you, many women have been brainwashed to believe that men are "out to get them." So it would more or less be equal if boys got taught that women are not objects for their own amusement.

 

[Billy]

How is it dangerous to suggest to people that, hey, wtf you guys--Maybe treating people with respect is a good idea!

Yeah. Ok

That is not dangerous, installing programs that emasculate boys is, and thats the end goal of this conversation and people who want to "defend women". It always is. It involves some willful bending of gender norms for boys who are already impressionable and confused, and making them more impressionable and more confused.

 

[bamf]

Thats what I am saying, there is no guarantee of safety in life, life is cruel and unfair, pretending it can be anything but that is ridiculous! Who is responsibile for your safety? You are! I am responsible for mine.

Other people aren't responsible for what you do to them.

 

[bamf]

That is not dangerous, installing programs that emasculate boys is, and thats the end goal of this conversation and people who want to "defend women". It always is. It involves some willful bending of gender norms for boys who are already impressionable and confused, and making them more impressionable and more confused.

Dear god, when did this become about emasculating boys?