"Refugees" What is Europe thinking?

[Flavus Aquila]

We had a thread about this, I thin La Sagna made it.

I accept those refugees who really are in a real danger and escape from war etc. but not those economical ''refugees''. Also there's a huge risk of ISIS when they come to here even without any official papers like passports. I'm mostly scared because I am a woman. Well, Arabic culture is very drastically different from European culture and they don't respect women as much as Western European men do (sure, there are bad apples in every culture...) but how they treat women just makes me scared that I can't go outside alone anymore when it's darker, so I would get raped etc.

What Europe is thinking? It's actually not thinking at all and that worries me A LOT.

Virtually all of them are economic "refugees"... ie. opportunists.

Without but the smallest exception, all the "refugees" entering Europe now are coming from North African/Middle Eastern refugee camps. They are not departing Syria, they already did that several years ago. They are not leaving war zones, or even conflict zones.

I concede that they are displaced from their native country - and displaced persons need to be re-located. However, such re-settlement needs to be done in the regular way, through application for visas through external consulates. Personally, if these "refugees" refuse to see their culture/religion as having been a reasonably substantial contributing factor the conflicts they left years ago, then I think that they should understand that this culture needs to be left behind, when applying for visas.

I know that is not the left-politically-correct attitude. But I do not agree with the left, and do not think that they should have the monopoly on deciding what is correct and what is incorrect - especially when it starts to dissolve my local/native culture, which they seem to have so much contempt for. Western culture is the native/aboriginal culture of Europe (or large parts of it) - and in areas where it was introduced (thinking of Germany and the North), it was so long ago that it is equivalent to native culture.

 

[Artisan]

I thought that most of the refugees were Christian Syrians? This might have change. I'm trying to find information on this.

Actually I recommend you find some of the more prominent news papers from other countries and use google translate to read their articles and find the statistics.
Google a bit and you will come across a lot that seems to indicate otherwise.

 

[Sriracha]

If only those citizens had guns...

... a law that mandates all women carry a gun. WHOOP!

 

[SpecialEdition]

I thought that most of the refugees were Christian Syrians? This might have change. I'm trying to find information on this.
So if I'm correct, "arab culture" is inocrrect, right? Or am I mistaken?

It is true that there are some countries which have pledged to accept Christians only. Some Muslims are "converting" with the hopes that they will be able to stay.

 

[Oscillation]

It is true that there are some countries which have pledged to accept Christians only. Some Muslims are "converting" with the hopes that they will be able to stay.

Hmmm, I get mixed feelings hearing about this. People shouldn't have to convert to be let inside a country.

When I talk about "christian" in this thread I'm thinking more of the cultural aspect, involving christian ethics, and not the religious, just so you guys understand that. I'm aware of that it's perhaps not the best suitiable choice of words, but I can't come to think of any better at the moment.

 

[j654dgj7]

I work for a charitable organization that helps refugees assimilate to the Danish society. I haven't met anyone that isn't scared, alone and disenfranchised. These people are mostly well educated, but suffer from varying degrees of PTSD. There's always going to be assholes among large groups of people, but most are very grateful to live in a peaceful society for a change.

 

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This... is Earth. We live on this planet. Every event, all of our history, everyone we know and don't know, have taken place and lived on this single place. From here we hear childrens cry when born, and elderly take their last breath. Life... and death is taken place here, and, for what we know, this is the only place for it.

I don't firstly live in a nation or a culture of that nation, I live here on Earth, and while that might strike you as a extreme point of view, so be it! It's still true though! I have GREAT interest in the well being of all of humankind, and therefor I have almost no interest in the interest of one single nation - like Sweden. If Sweden gets worse for bringing in all the criminals, and all the muslims, and all the human trash you so eagerly speak of... bring it on! Because why would I care if the dust of the Earth is above the carpet... or under it? If we have crimes going on in one corner of the Earth or another, why would that make a differens? Oh, yes, it would only make a differens if I cared so much for my own life and the lifes of my near ones, that I cared more for them than others. Of course we care for our near ones, it's in our DNA, but why would I care more for them then, let's say, the man from Iraq that I never get the chance to say hello to? He might be evil! So be it, so am I! He might rape my sister... but that only tells me he already rapes others sisters, in Iraq. Our Swedish culture might vanish! Why do I care? As long as human value and christian* etics doesn't get comprimised, I will live on this planet. Aah, but see, that is the point of all this fear: what if human value and christian/western etics do get comprimised? Well, then we'll fight... just as we would fight for it even when the fight doesn't take place in our midst but far, far away.

So I will greet them with open arm, because I will not give up on this Earth. And if I die because of it, so be it. In 1000 years we will all have been dead for 900 years anyway. All that we cared for, all that we loved, will be long gone. Life!

I'm young, and probably dumb, but this is the way I see it now. And I sincerly hope that others would too, so that the interest of nations would decrease, and the interest of humankind would increase. Nations might fall.


*Christian etics: I use the term "christian", not as to point out the religious beliefs, but the influence that belief has had over the etics in Europe. You could argue the history of christian influences, but please, try to understand that I'm having a hard time finding a better word, and I'm not trying to find the perfect one. Hopefully you understand what I mean.

This is so true and I speak the same! ..when I speak from my heart. This is situation for brain and logic, not for emotions. If you, like me, pray for life in any way but with refugees you see that they destroy life by their way, something must be very wrong..

My country is just one of ways to get to your country, no one wants to live in Croatia
But if some of them do, I will also accept them with my arms spread.. but this whole situation is very wrong and unfortunately, those who are most vunerable will get hurt as it is all just a little bit of history repeated

 

[Oscillation]

This is so true and I speak the same! ..when I speak from my heart. This is situation for brain and logic, not for emotions. If you, like me, pray for life in any way but with refugees you see that they destroy life by their way, something must be very wrong..

My country is just one of ways to get to your country, no one wants to live in Croatia
But if some of them do, I will also accept them with my arms spread.. but this whole situation is very wrong and unfortunately, those who are most vunerable will get hurt as it is all just a little bit of history repeated

Let us make it work then, with brain and logic, somehow.
I'm glad to hear that there is a heart though. To often I hear no heart what so ever.

Let us not cast away neither hearth nor brain. Let us be whole human beings that strive for the best. And I know it's hard (impossible?).

 

[just me]

Daniel 7 is interesting to read.

 

[the]

Daniel 7 is interesting to read.

How so?

 

[La Sagna]

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

While that is true and the way crime is reported and recorded doesn't always say what we think it does (this article addresses some of that), the fact remains that the instances of rape are exceptionally high and that number is rising consistently. So even if the data is skewed in some sense, the overall trend is still very bad. This is just one example but if you google Sweden and rape, it's all over the place and the amount information is overwhelming.

Most of the websites who comment on the rate of rape in Sweden have obvious agendas and provide no evidence for most of their claims. The article you posted makes it clear why the rate is the way it is and it sounds to me to be more about Sweden taking rape seriously and documenting it carefully than a reflection of the actual number of rapes compared to other countries. I bet the rate is just as high or higher in many countries but that many of them don't get reported or recorded by the police even if they are reported.

 

[La Sagna]

This is right and falls in line with a lot of the information that I have read and many of the videos that I have seen. They are manipulating the media.

All of this started because of one photo of one little boy washed up on shore... As it turns out his own father was operating that ship and he lost his whole family... He killed his own family. But the world just sees one little boy that didn't make it and now they feel a responsibility to save the women and children - those who are being pushed in front to manipulate the media. I have even read cases of people stealing other people's children to do the same! Sickening.

Do you double check the information that you read online? I'm not saying it's all incorrect but when I have been sent some information it's usually not backed with any evidence but just claims from right wing groups. There is a lot of xenophobic false claims going around. People absolutely have a right to be concerned but there is a lot out there that is downright hate.

 

[JJJA]

Do you double check the information that you read online? I'm not saying it's all incorrect but when I have been sent some information it's usually not backed with any evidence but just claims from right wing groups. There is a lot of xenophobic false claims going around. People absolutely have a right to be concerned but there is a lot out there that is downright hate.

Watching a video where a horde of migrants set fire to the streets of countries they're not even supposed to be in, and cause destruction, violence and make ridiculous demands to the authorities, I'm not sure right-wing groups and so-called 'Xenophobia' are what I am primarily worried about. I don't understand why those that oppose allowing every migrant into Europe unchecked is considered a right-wing claim. It's a claim that should be made by any rational politician that currently holds some kind of power to divert the migrants causing such mayhem away from the refugee group, so that we can properly maintain a humanitarian mission whereby the REAL refugees escaping war-torn Syria can be granted asylum. And also; why do you say people have a right to be concerned? OF COURSE they do. That should go without saying. But the majority of economic migrants that are marching into European borders are not looking for asylum, and the principles of their original culture/religion are not compatible with Western European liberalism. All we can do is hope they wish to assimilate.

 

[SpecialEdition]

Do you double check the information that you read online? I'm not saying it's all incorrect but when I have been sent some information it's usually not backed with any evidence but just claims from right wing groups. There is a lot of xenophobic false claims going around. People absolutely have a right to be concerned but there is a lot out there that is downright hate.

I try to read as much as I can from various sources before I make any statements or formulate opinions. My point in this is mostly that the trend in rapes is going upwards. Even if they are reporting more frequently than before, I still think it paints a very ugly picture. You are right in that some countries many rapes are not reported at all but I believe that is a social issue within those countries and they are not really part of the "western world."

Much of what I have formed my opinion on has been first as a result of the Gatestone Institute International Policy Council followed by what I have read from first person accounts, from the videos that I have seen in various parts of the world then lastly the regular media sensationalized news.

I want to be very clear in that I recognize there is a serious problem with ISIS and I absolutely believe people should be able to seek asylum but ONLY if they go through the formal process after arriving at their destination. This is not happening. Instead there is a mass exodus of people leaving those countries and they are NOT refugees seeking Asylum and this is where I have the biggest problem.

Additionally, when you have a problem like ISIS and everyone floods the country then you essentially have a country left with only ISIS. It will just grow in power. Then what? Not to say these people should stay and potentially face death but there is a better solution to just opening borders wide up and letting the whole world through. The economy isn't strong enough and the infrastructure isn't there to support this many people all in one shot. That many displaced people breeds chaos. Especially if they are not displacing themselves out of need but out of greed.

 

[SpecialEdition]

What do you all think about the "rumour" that wealthy Arab nations are refusing most of these "immigrants" because of a prophecy that this kind of mass exodus means the end of their world?

 

[ImaginaryBloke]

Most of the websites who comment on the rate of rape in Sweden have obvious agendas and provide no evidence for most of their claims. The article you posted makes it clear why the rate is the way it is and it sounds to me to be more about Sweden taking rape seriously and documenting it carefully than a reflection of the actual number of rapes compared to other countries. I bet the rate is just as high or higher in many countries but that many of them don't get reported or recorded by the police even if they are reported.

@La_Sagna, you nailed it (I cannot represent your name accurately because it contains a space character. My apologies.)

[MENTION=7838]SpecialEdition[/MENTION], I think that you ran into an Internet Meme.


https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/rape-and-sex-offences.html

I will leave it for you people here to decide for yourself whether the level of rape is increasing in Sweden, from the link above that is cut and pasted below. It contains some nice plots that cannot be posted here easily (not JPEGs, PNGs or GIFS, but some other format).


Rape and sexual offences

Exposure to sexual offences

"In 2013 the percentage of people reporting that they were the victim of sexual offences was 1.3 per cent. This is an increase compared to 2012, when the percentage was 0.8 per cent, a level which is essentially unchanged since 2005.

Exposure to sexual threats is significantly more common among women than among men, and is most common in the 16—19 and 20—24 age brackets. The most common crime scene is a public place, with the perpetrator being unknown to the victim."

Reported offences

"The number of reported sexual offences has increased in Sweden over the last decade. The increase is mainly due to a general rise in people's tendency to report crime and the changes in legislation that have led to more crimes now being viewed as rape.

A new sexual offences legislation came into force in 2005, which meant that some actions that were previously classed as sexual exploitation are now classed as rape. The changes in the legislation resulted in a decrease in reported sexual coercion and exploitation, whereas the number of reported rapes have increased. As of July 1, 2013, further changes were made to the legislation in order to broaden the term rape to also include cases where the victim reacted with passivity.

However, there is reason to believe that certain types of sexual offences really have increased over the last thirty years, much due to changes in society, such as contact with strangers via the internet, more bars and pubs and increased alcohol consumption."

Difficult to make international comparisons

"Comparisons between countries that are based on their individual crime statistics require caution since such statistics are produced differently in different countries. Criminal statistics do not provide a simple reflection of the level of crime in a given country. Criminal statistics are influenced by both legal and statistical factors, and by the extent to which crime is reported and registered. These factors can vary from one country to another. There are no international standards for how crime statistics should be produced and presented and this makes international comparisons difficult."


More international comparisons

A Wikipedia article states that "increased gender equality leads to higher levels of disclosure about physical and sexual violence against women." Perhaps that is why Sweden has got such a high level of rape.

The Swedish paper Aftonbladet printed the following number of reported rapes per 100,000 inhabitants. It is hard to believe that reported crime levels do not reflect true crime levels when it comes to rapes. It has got to do with sampling questions, cultural attitudes to reporting cases or other things. For example, how can Sweden's level be 53.2 while that of Norway is 19.8, roughly 2.7 times higher? Norway is similar to Sweden from a cultural point of view.

[table="width: 500, class: grid"]
[tr]
[td]Lesotho[/td]
[td]91.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Sverige[/td]
[td]53.2[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]USA[/td]
[td]28.6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Zimbabwe[/td]
[td]25,6[/td]
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[td]Norway[/td]
[td]19.8[/td]
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[tr]
[td]Israel[/td]
[td]17,6[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Finland[/td]
[td]17.2[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Danmark[/td]
[td]7.3[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Kenya[/td]
[td]1.9[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Turkiet[/td]
[td]1.4[/td]
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[td]Japan[/td]
[td]1.2[/td]
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Some links

https://www.bra.se/bra/bra-in-english/home/crime-and-statistics/violence-in-intimate-relationships.html

Here is another link about domestic violence in Sweden that might be interesting.

 

[Oscillation]

Firstly,

The Sweden and rape discussion is another topic, and should continue in another thread.

Secondly,

it feels as if there is an underlying statment that higher rates of imigrants implies increased rape frequenses. I cannot but feel that this is rasist, but I would like to get to the facts, and for someone to comment on my observation in the first place. Have I understood correctly: you (as in anyone) believe that because of the imigrants there is more rapes going on? Just to be clear.

 

[just me]

How so?

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

 

[the]

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Thanks for the cut and paste

 

[SpecialEdition]

Firstly,

The Sweden and rape discussion is another topic, and should continue in another thread.

Secondly,

it feels as if there is an underlying statment that higher rates of imigrants implies increased rape frequenses. I cannot but feel that this is rasist, but I would like to get to the facts, and for someone to comment on my observation in the first place. Have I understood correctly: you (as in anyone) believe that because of the imigrants there is more rapes going on? Just to be clear.

Not racially motivated. There is more than one race, more than one religion, more than one culture, more than one country involved. It can't be nailed down to one group of people. To draw conclusions from various sources isn't what I would call racism. It's not hatefully motivated. It is an observation that is being made by many entities. The country has a reputation for having an exceptionally high rate of rape in comparison to many countries (that also report/record rapes). It is a connection that many are making as the increase is seemingly dramatic. That is why the topic was introduced and I do believe it is related because that seems to be the overwhelming perception. I am not saying I *personally* blame one thing or another. It's just something that is out there and a very hot topic. I am definitely open to being proven "wrong," but the numbers are still troubling to me.