"Refugees" What is Europe thinking?

[Flavus Aquila]

It must be easy to critizise other countries on their refugee/illigal immigrant policies and their citizen's complaints.
Especially when you are from a country that pretty much does anything to keep them out and make the ones who do get in miserable, or in australia's case, also has a taskforce to track them down and deport them.

Australia has the highest per-capita intake of refugees of any country - including Germany.
We just absolutely refuse any immigration that is not done through the correct channels. One of the reasons for this was to stop people-smugglers from Indonesia, who would charge thousands to bring middle-eastern refugees across the Torres Straight, but once at sea would throw the refugees overboard. Since the policy of absolute refusal to settle/accept any refugee that arrived by boat, zero refugees have died at sea; and our intake has actually increased.

So, yes - it is very very easy to criticise other countries and their stupid policies, in so many respects, without any hypocrisy whatsoever.

On a tangential issue of this thread, I must also add that I am very satisfied that the Australian government has decided to give persecuted minorities preference for its refugee intake from Syria. (Persecuted minority = non-muslim). Syrian minorities would have qualified as refugees anyway, before the recent unrest/war/etc. Ie. Australia will not be taking Syrians, who previously participated in, or gave tacit consent to the persecution of non-muslim minorities.

 

[Trifoilum]

I can see the restraint and the wariness. Moving large numbers of people, most of which have little to no economic bearing to a country (especially smaller countries, no matter how rich) WILL make a change. Whether it is one demanded, or one that simply....happens. A change of culture, a change of employment numbers, a change of social interactions. It is also impossible to claim that all these will not make any sort of crime, or any sort of disruption. To do so is to trap them in respectability politics-- "be dignified and endure all your sufferings with stiff upper lips."

Then there are human errors-- few bad apples slipping, and then wrecking havoc. Today we're seeing one such examples of how bad the havoc can be, in Paris. THIS will change the national and international debate about refugees-- I am sure.

And yet, should they not help?

I think the primary questions that should be asked here is something roughly like,

"Do you think stopping the majority of the suffering for the sake of the minority is preferable?"
and
"Do you prefer things to not change?"

Because a lot of them -are- suffering in one way or another. A lot of them are refugees (and I personally don't like to separate between 'refugees' and 'economic refugees', as if the latter does not experience what the former is experiencing-- or that only a particular set of suffering is 'real' enough for people to run.). A lot of them need some place to live, some amount of security.

And a lot of anti-immigrant sentiments seems to me like fear of having their status quo changed, whether justified or not. There might be a slippery slope of 'omg islamist taking over our countries' and 'omg immigrants taking over our jobs', too.

Is it good, or just, to deny these refugees the chance?

Personally I cannot state anything. But a lot of people say it's not good nor just, and they are opening their hands and homes, just as others are saying it is good and just (or perhaps necessary)

 

[Artisan]

Is it good, or just, to deny these refugees the chance?

In essense no, but in terms of what is best for the country, yes.

There is a reason why a lot of arabic countries refuse to take in refugees. Have you ever been in a war tri? If you have, then you will realize how much it sucks, but also how many people get psychologically damaged and tired they get by this. That means that while you may have the means to take care of x amount of people, you will not have the x amount of psychological care they need. We have all seen what happens when people don't get the psychological care they need. These arabic countries say: Why would anyone in their right mind, take in so many people who need this kind of care that you cannot give? it is a recepy for trouble. As it is in countries without a recent war, psychological care is inadequate at best. This is because this is usually not covered by insurances, and thus only forced psychiatric hospitalisation gets those without the means to get this help, though often after something bad has occured.

I do not know about you, but europe has not the means to provide psychological support to refugees, nor does it have the capacity to support these refugees in the manner they are expecting. All these people know about europe is what they've seen on tv. things like expansive cars, and the rumours that they get paid to do nothing and everything else people smugglers tell them. These people are already psychologically damaged by wars, how do you think they will take it when they get a treatment that does not reflect this diluted image they have of the countries they are heading to ?

These people tend to go for countries that are presented as the richest and most economically benificial to them, and pass by all the countries on their way there where it is safe.


So lets look at your question again... "Is it good, or just, to deny these refugees the chance?"
In essence no, but in terms of what is best for your own country and it's people yes. Just imagine how you would feel if you walked the distance of a continent to get somewhere that sounds like heaven because you were promised by people smugglers an image that was reinforced by a lot of what you saw on television and on the internet, that when you get there: you will get fed your favorite foods in a five star hotel of a villa that you get for free with your big fat brand new BMW and hordes of blond chicks throwing themselves on you and a fat salary of thousands of euros a month because the people really want you there. And then you get there. And it's all a lie... What would you do?

Looking at it like that, I would say, it would be in the best interests of everyone to dissuade this image of western europe from refugees minds before they get to our borders or even make the journey here, and close up the borders allowing ony for regulated legal immigration to take place. Where whomever comes in is well screened, has been briefed on what the reality is when they get to their destination, goes through an adequate integration program and gets the psychiatric support they need.

Yes this would mean a smaller refugee intake, but it would also mean that those who really need it get adequate care, instead of being abbandoned with a tent in the winter because the few empty buildings the country they entered did have are packed with refugees on every inch of the floor. Not to mention that the obvious solution of people taking in refugees in their homes is only something people who agree with an unregulated unscreened stream of immigrants will do, and the majority of people do not prefer to let a complete stranger about who nothing is known and of who'm not even their name has been verified into their home. If people were that willing to let an unknown person in their room, then homeless people were not freezing to death out in the streets every winter.

 

[housel]

[video=youtube;44vzMNG2fZc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44vzMNG2fZc[/video]

 

[Breathlessangel]

Hmm.. I am so late with all of these topics but I wanted to share some information from my part of the world and also air/vent some of my worries about what's happening in the world right now. Since its deeply troubling me. I want to find that happy middle to all of this and I know you guys too. Who wants a chaotic world?

First, I have no idea which thread to post this one since there are so many threads here which are interrelated regarding this issue. Second, I'm not European but I want to share something that might give an idea or a picture that "might or might not" happen or what will be the "after effects" in Europe of mass migration especially with a different culture/religion. I'm not an expert to anything just merely stating some information from what I know and from where I am that may help us analyze the situation hopefully. Since I want us to evolve for the better.. not for the worse.

So my country are dominantly Catholic like almost 88 percent with Muslims as the largest minority in our whole population. (We are originally an Islamic country though other ancestors are pagans/tribes then colonization came..) We now have 3 major regions: two regions are dominantly Catholic while the bottom region are where the majority of Muslims live for centuries. We have two largest rebel groups that wants to overthrow our government for decades; they are the major source of bombings in few of our cities. These rebel groups we have are all Muslims. They keep battling our government because they want to govern the country or they are highly against it. Keep in mind we are of the same ethnicity. So for decades.. we have civil wars on our bottom region in which the majority of us don't go there since its war-stricken places or deemed as not safe. In our national media, you always hear them taking hostages usually even targeting the foreigners especially Americans or recently Canadians in exchange of ransom which in return they use to buy bombs or guns. Also, the saddest part is.. their trademark punishment if you don't give into their demands. That is "beheading" of their hostages which I find too disturbing and that young kids are already taught how to kill at a very young age and that a few of them (esp. the intellectual ones/top university graduates) are now ISIS recruits.

Also, this is my observation.. in my city: we have Muslims too but they are in small group. We have our own crimes but they never contributed to it. They are peacefully the ones who sell retail clothing, jewelries like bracelets made of fresh water pearls. I also have few Muslim friends, one said.. she doesn't want to be a Muslim anymore because it's like the rest of the world sees them as terrorists. The other one, he has applied in NASA and basing on his educational attainment and his skils.. etc. he is more than qualified but was denied because he has a father who has a Pakistani background and he may be a terrorist although he grew up in the West his whole life.

Since I've read some of the threads relating to this issue. With regards to rape cases, it's true there's higher risk basing on what I heard from my fellow Nurses who have worked in different Middle Eastern countries esp. Saudi and even from my Muslim friend who have been there for years. He even told me to stay away from Saudi and maybe just work in Dubai since it presents lesser risk than other Middle Eastern countries. They even said something like if they have seen the hair of the girl exposed; it's like you're already somewhat naked into their eyes or that you're tempting them. (That's why its important to cover up even you're not a Muslim when you work to their places.) Plus, my innermost fear is their kind of punishments if ever I work there like public executions since if you have committed an evil act; you should be persecuted in front of the public to make you an example of what will be the punishment for evil or that you're even seen as evil. My Muslim friends however aren't strict like they recognize and respect other faiths and highly aware. Majority of Muslims in my country though stick to their own so that they can maintain their ways and most if not all don't like to assimilate since they are thousands group together in a community.

So with Syrian refugees that comes in with huge number in Europe.. that worries me. Since Europe won't be the same.. with foreigners comes new "foreign" challenges and problems will be presented. I also think, we need to help them but it won't be easy at all. In fact it really takes a slow sure and healing process. Healing their traumas and educating them are important. Giving them higher awareness to what truly matters and that violence isn't normal way or part of life. That punishments doesn't include beheading or kneeling in public and your number of hits depends on how great is your sin. There must be an effective community integration.. they should adapt to their new environment and preserving their faith yet not try to change their environment and make it a place they are used to be. Oh how about fairness? if you welcome them to live on your land, how about equal privileges? like equal job opportunities? But then.. its easier said than done, so expect reality...

If ever you ask me if I want my country to accept Syrian refugees, I will still say yes but wishing they are only in good number of people. A number that both the people and the government can handle. My heart goes out to all of them and when we close our doors to those who need its never a solution but only adds spark to the fire. But you can't help if you don't have the capacity to help since both of you will just drown each other. Plus, with the threats of ISIS.. we can always fight them through our way of thinking and influencing the minds of the young people like the young Syrian refugees and that showing kindness will be an example of why there's always hope in the future.

This post is really long.. sorry; it's partly a rant too in my part lol. I really wish we can find this happy middle in which we don't compromise the security and protection of the people in the country, the ideals of a free nation and most of all the future of our children and all generations to come. Also, we don't compromise our kindness and compassion.. which makes us human beings in the first place. Yes, we recognize our evil but it shouldn't win us. We recognize all of this negativity in this world but it can't change our smiles. We are stronger than this. All of these things happening in the world right now gives me an idea that it's like it has always been a good vs evil no matter what religion or race we are. So know which side you are and then stand by it.

 

[Artisan]

Well... looks like stuff still is not looking up. :/

[video=youtube;42jpuXJPk0w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42jpuXJPk0w[/video]

[video=youtube;va9sBElkG_s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va9sBElkG_s[/video]
Poor old lady even gets harassed during her interview...


I'm also not sure what to make of the EU-Turkey deal...