Revisiting Feminism: INFJ (or other type) perspectives

[muir]

This is interesting.

Honestly, I see her as empowered. She is choosing to act this way and convey an over-sexualized message [I don't agree with her message!]...but it is her body, and she should be able to present it in any way that she wants.

Anyone and everyone should have the opportunity to express themselves in any fashion they want (as long as it doesn't harm someone else). Miley may be misguided, and yes the overt sexilization of women in fantasy and fetish roles is likely driving this message, but on an individual basis- she is free to do whatever she pleases.

I agree that people should be free to do want they want with their bodies

But is a junky empowered when they shoot themself up in the foot because all the veins in their arms are collapsed and are infected?

Sorry...that's a bit gross...but it makes the point....

It isn't just about doing what we want to do.....that is just the personal freedom aspect.... but what about our responsibility to the wider community?

Also people don't always have a full conscious awareness of the implications of what they are doing particularly when they are young; what kind of society pushes a 19-20 year old out on stage dressed like that in front of a teenage audience?

Besides i'm not sure she is acting entirely from her own free will. There are ways to manipulate peoples perceptions and then there is also outright mind control. Miley cyrus is not in control of her life; she is a pawn in the games of other people

What empowerment is, imo, is knowing how the world works so that you can be no one elses fool.....so that you can make your own informed decisions and be the master of your own destiny. Miley cyrus is someone elses fool and i fully anticipate some sort of break down at some point from her as she crumbles under all the pressure

 

[muir]

I agree. Sometimes I get discouraged talking about the breadth of these issues. It can change on an individual level, but the scope and implications of them are so big and woven so tightly into our society and culture, that at times- it feels like it'll never change.

I think we're all saying the same thing = equality for all...we're just packaging it under different names...this conflict of defining and naming what we believe in takes so much of our time, when really, we should be trying to make it real.

I think people need to figure out what they really want (but an informed decision that takes into account the wider implications) and then be that change in the world

What do women really want?

I think what a lot of woman really want is a man who is independantly strong but who is not going to diminish her freedoms...but that is a balancing act and that is what everyone is being asked to do more and more these days...walk tightropes

strong but not too strong, sensitive but not too sensitive etc

 

[jimtaylor]

I know I will have problems saying this, but anyway, here is my opinion on feminism. I will not argue my position, I will just statet it.

In most cases, feminism has stolen femininity. The price is huge, and so are the devastatings effects of that. Femininity is gone in most of the places where its philosophy has developed.

On the other side, some and only some of the premises of feminism I would agree with, the most important being the one that strive for the equality of genders.

I will join you in the bulls eye. I think women can be equal without having to give up being feminine. As selfish as it is for me to say, I wish my mom had been more like a mother. More feminine and less like a dude. Sure she is a powerful, intelligent, driven, successful lady and all that good stuff but I really admire women who embrace being a nurturer. Someone who really embraces being feminine, sensitive, genuine and caring. I don't think it is a weakness or lesser than the man or woman who goes out and brings home the bacon. If that makes me sexist then I am sexist.

 

[muir]

I will join you in the bulls eye. I think women can be equal without having to give up being feminine. As selfish as it is for me to say, I wish my mom had been more like a mother. More feminine and less like a dude. Sure she is a powerful, intelligent, driven, successful lady and all that good stuff but I really admire women who embrace being a nurturer. Someone who really embraces being feminine, sensitive, genuine and caring. I don't think it is a weakness or lesser than the man or woman who goes out and brings home the bacon. If that makes me sexist then I am sexist.

I don't think that's sexist...i think that being a nurterer IS a form of strength....one that our dog eat dog culture is not placing any value on

 

[say what]

I agree that people should be free to do want they want with their bodies

But is a junky empowered when they shoot themself up in the foot because all the veins in their arms are collapsed and are infected?

Sorry...that's a bit gross...but it makes the point....

It isn't just about doing what we want to do.....that is just the personal freedom aspect.... but what about our responsibility to the wider community?

Also people don't always have a full conscious awareness of the implications of what they are doing particularly when they are young; what kind of society pushes a 19-20 year old out on stage dressed like that in front of a teenage audience?

Besides i'm not sure she is acting entirely from her own free will. There are ways to manipulate peoples perceptions and then there is also outright mind control. Miley cyrus is not in control of her life; she is a pawn in the games of other people

What empowerment is, imo, is knowing how the world works so that you can be no one elses fool.....so that you can make your own informed decisions and be the master of your own destiny. Miley cyrus is someone elses fool and i fully anticipate some sort of break down at some point from her as she crumbles under all the pressure

But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

It's like the debate on prostitution. Should it be legalized? People will say no, and base it on facts about women being pushed into it not on their own free will. But the reality is, legal or illegal, this will happen. Legalizing it will, in the broader picture, make it safe.

Allowing a woman to display her body in any fashion does help a broader picture. It pushes boundaries and ideas about how women should act and present themselves. If we as a society accept and embrace that, than this will have less of an impact and will likely not happen.

People have the freedom to do what they want with their body. The junky example is good- yes, as an individual, he has the right to do whatever it is he wants to do. As a society, we have to provide that junkie with the equal opportunities and advantages that everyone else has. Why is that junky shooting himself up? Did he become addicted because he has a mental illness? What is driving him to harm himself? Past experiences? Does he have accessibility to opportunities to go to rehab? To recover?

If he is given all the opportunities to not be a junky and recover, and yet still wants to be a junky- it's his right...but most junkies aren't given those opportunities or are not treated equally. Injustices often impact actions and behaviours- while it might be an individual's choice to participate in those behaviours, we have to recognize the larger and broader influences on why an individual is making those choices.

 

[muir]

But that's a whole other kettle of fish.

As i always say in these discussions it is all the same kettle of fish

Who creates our culture? Who creates our laws? Who creates our morality? Who creates our perceptions of how we should think and feel about various things?

when you really get down to the bare bones of these things then you start looking into influecnes like the frankfurt school as shown in that clip i posted

To keep it brief that group of people are seeking to create a marxist state by destroying western culture. Miley cyrus is just part of that undermining of western culture. Feminism is also used by the same people to undermine the status quo

Don't get me wrong...i think that our society does need to change many things but i don't share their vision of a centrally controlled economy run by them and i don't like how we are all being manipulated without our knowledge

But miley cyrus's behaviour is not about trying to sell records. She is just the latest in a line of people who have been used to push out the boundaries of what is perceived as acceptable. Each fresh generation is exposed to a greater extreme than the previous one and through that process society is desensitised over several generations

These people want children to be raised by the state so that they can be indoctrinated. They are currently trying to increase the number of hours that children are at school in the UK. The ex prime ministers wife was known for being a career lady (a lawyer) and she publically said that she believed that all women should be back in the work place within weeks of giving birth!

This is really what this is all about...it isn't about womens rights....once these guys have ridden the feminism train to the end of the line they will jump off and create their centrally controlled system where both women and men are disenfranchised and homogenised

It's like the debate on prostitution. Should it be legalized? People will say no, and base it on facts about women being pushed into it not on their own free will. But the reality is, legal or illegal, this will happen. Legalizing it will, in the broader picture, make it safe.

There's no doubt that by making it illegal it then fuels a trade in sex slaves: human trafficking

Allowing a woman to display her body in any fashion does help a broader picture. It pushes boundaries and ideas about how women should act and present themselves. If we as a society accept and embrace that, than this will have less of an impact and will likely not happen.

What miley cyrus will produce is generation of pre-teen girls dressing up as prostitutes and worrying about adult issues instead of enjoying their childhood

People have the freedom to do what they want with their body. The junky example is good- yes, as an individual, he has the right to do whatever it is he wants to do. As a society, we have to provide that junkie with the equal opportunities and advantages that everyone else has. Why is that junky shooting himself up? Did he become addicted because he has a mental illness? What is driving him to harm himself? Past experiences? Does he have accessibility to opportunities to go to rehab? To recover?

Was miley cyrus sold into showbusiness prostitution by money grubbing parents who should have been looking out for her?

If he is given all the opportunities to not be a junky and recover, and yet still wants to be a junky- it's his right...but most junkies aren't given those opportunities or are not treated equally. Injustices often impact actions and behaviours- while it might be an individual's choice to participate in those behaviours, we have to recognize the larger and broader influences on why an individual is making those choices.

The same goes for miley...there are wider implications

 

[La Sagna]

I am amazed at the subjectivity found in people's interpretation of the word 'feminism'. It seems a lot of people mistake it for the word 'misandry'.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/ar...-cons-of-abandoning-the-word-feminist/275511/

 

[La Sagna]

I will join you in the bulls eye. I think women can be equal without having to give up being feminine. As selfish as it is for me to say, I wish my mom had been more like a mother. More feminine and less like a dude. Sure she is a powerful, intelligent, driven, successful lady and all that good stuff but I really admire women who embrace being a nurturer. Someone who really embraces being feminine, sensitive, genuine and caring. I don't think it is a weakness or lesser than the man or woman who goes out and brings home the bacon. If that makes me sexist then I am sexist.

I consider myself a feminist and I am very feminine. The most important role that I have had in my life was raising my children. I believe that part of making women equal to men economically and socially is to value the role of motherhood. The most strident feminist that I know is also a lactation coach.

I find it very ironic that I am the one defending the use of the word 'feminist, when my life choices have probably been furthest away from what is the stereotypical idea of a 'feminist'. Maybe that is why I feel comfortable with the label because there is no way that people can accuse me of being a 'man-hating career driven woman who neglected her children'. I can say though that if all your eggs are put into the basket of motherhood then when the kids grow up you are invisible in society unless you invent a new role for yourself.

 

[the]

Because inequality still exists and because injustice still exists, I cannot think of myself as a socially conscious and active individual without also considering myself a feminist. We've made progress, but we're hardly post-gender, just like we're hardly post-racial. Shit is still fucked up.

What does it mean to be post gender?

 

[muir]

I consider myself a feminist and I am very feminine. The most important role that I have had in my life was raising my children. I believe that part of making women equal to men economically and socially is to value the role of motherhood. The most strident feminist that I know is also a lactation coach.

I find it very ironic that I am the one defending the use of the word 'feminist, when my life choices have probably been furthest away from what is the stereotypical idea of a 'feminist'. Maybe that is why I feel comfortable with the label because there is no way that people can accuse me of being a 'man-hating career driven woman who neglected her children'. I can say though that if all your eggs are put into the basket of motherhood then when the kids grow up you are invisible in society unless you invent a new role for yourself.

Do you think that the answer is:

for women to stop having babies

or

for the state to raise children instead of parents

or

for men to do the childcare instead of women

or

for society to allow more time off from work for both the mother and the father

or

for society to undergo a cultural shift where the role of childcare is valued more and is given more appreciation

or something else

The knowledge that women will often take time off work to have children is i think often a factor in the choice of job candidates (which is probably partly why there is inequality in earnings); is this:

just a cross women should bare

or

should society adopt one of the measures mentioned above

or

should men be blamed for this quirk of nature

or

something else

 

[La Sagna]

for society to undergo a cultural shift where the role of childcare is valued more and is given more appreciation

I pick this one for sure.

 

[muir]

I pick this one for sure.

yeah i'd go for that one

I have been watching a few programmes about how things are done in different european countries

The UK is very much in lockstep with the US...so when you had reagan we had his equivalent in thatcher which created a whole 'greed is good' culture. This was driven forward by the protestant work ethic and the individualism thing and now we have everyone competing and feeling more isolated and insecure than ever

In germany being a house mum is considered equivalent to a job. Its taken very seriously. There is actually cultural pressure on women to be such if they have a child. They also have kindergartens where children are taken out into nature and enocuraged to do adventurous play. They have a derogatory name for women that go back to work too early...i think they call them a 'crow' or something

But obviously the state supports people to do that

In the UK and US it is becomeing financially harder for people and both parents in a couple are often required to work. This is in fact part of the social change they want...they want children raised by the state so they presure parents to do that

In the scandinavean countries the fathers are given more time off to raise children...like a year or something and everyone pays more taxes to enable this to happen; but because everyoe pays more taxes the state ensures that everyone is better off so there is less poverty than in the UK and US so its not uncommon to see guys about the place spending time with their kids

 

[acd]

I consider myself a feminist and I am very feminine. The most important role that I have had in my life was raising my children. I believe that part of making women equal to men economically and socially is to value the role of motherhood. The most strident feminist that I know is also a lactation coach.

I find it very ironic that I am the one defending the use of the word 'feminist, when my life choices have probably been furthest away from what is the stereotypical idea of a 'feminist'. Maybe that is why I feel comfortable with the label because there is no way that people can accuse me of being a 'man-hating career driven woman who neglected her children'. I can say though that if all your eggs are put into the basket of motherhood then when the kids grow up you are invisible in society unless you invent a new role for yourself.

Thanks to feminism, women are able to pursue being home makers or career driven or anything. It's the choice that empowers and matters. Because of feminism, women can make more choices. That's really all there is to it. If you believe women have the right to decide how to live their lives and what to do with their own bodies--you're a feminist.

 

[the]

Thanks to feminism, women are able to pursue being home makers

wrong.

 

[acd]

wrong.

If someone decides to be a stay at home mom how is that any less empowering than deciding to pursue a career?

 

[the]

If someone decides to be a stay at home mom how is that any less empowering than deciding to pursue a career?

women could do that before feminism.

 

[invisible]

feminists are not just one type or group of people. they are all different types of people trying to recognise and resolve the different problems of gender. many of them see the negatively fraught way that feminism is viewed by people who arent very interested in engaging with it, and they are even more interested in engaging in it for this reason, because when a stigma stops people from talking about something or identifying with particular schools of thought then thats even more of a reason to talk about it. refusing to be involved in complexity of feminist debate does not actually address or resolve the complex issues that are being discussed or are recognised as important within those disciplines.

women dont have to be feminine any more than men have to be masculine, thats wrong. and i think its so sad that people feel entitled to make value judgments on women based not on what kind of person they are, but on how feminine they are. women dont have to be anything according to what other people want them to be. its unfair and cruel to treat them as though they have to fulfill some particular role. they are individual people with their own feelings and inclinations and they should be able to choose to be who and what they want without being judged by others. they dont have to do anything just because you say that they do.

the group of women who hate men is actually very small, very tiny. actually i read some of their theory and i think its really interesting. but believe it or not, apart from that, most feminists i know and have read about love men!!!!!

 

[acd]

women could do that before feminism.

They could. They can also choose to do it now. I just don't think choosing to be a stay at home mom makes someone less of a feminist. That was my whole point.

 

[invisible]

men can be victims of domestic violence and rape too, but the reality is that violence at this time is heavily gendered:

"Likelliness of women versus men to be victimized by an intimate partner: Women are 5 to 8 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner."

"Percent of the victims of domestic violence that are women: 95 %"

http://www.statisticbrain.com/domestic-violence-abuse-stats/

 

[La Sagna]

women could do that before feminism.

That was almost the only thing that they were 'allowed' to do before feminism. Now it is a choice, not an expectation. Being able to choose to do something instead of doing it out of a lack of choice makes a big difference in self-perception and feelings of control over your life, which leads to more self-esteem and being a better mother.

It's one thing to be able to be with your children when they are young but a totally different thing to be expected to stay at home to cook and clean for your entire adult life.