men are masculine and women are feminine by default. try again
men can be victims of domestic violence and rape too, but the reality is that violence at this time is heavily gendered:
"Likelliness of women versus men to be victimized by an intimate partner: Women are 5 to 8 times more likely than men to be victimized by an intimate partner."
"Percent of the victims of domestic violence that are women: 95 %"
http://www.statisticbrain.com/domestic-violence-abuse-stats/
why is there no visual, active, mass movement of men who identify as traditionally masculine standing up against violence done on women? isnt that part of a masculine role, for men to protect women on the basis that they are bigger and stronger than women? so wouldnt it reinforce the value of the gender roles that gender traditionalists believe in, for masculine men to form a movement to stand up and say "come on guys, violence against women is wrong, stop bashing and raping women." there is a large movement of men congregating in places like reddit who are ready to stand up and say how much false accusations of rape harms mens reputation. wouldnt it be in the interests of these men too, to say "it is clearly in all of our interests to stop raping!" on the basis ONLY of these traditionalist gender values, you can kind of understand why women would get pissed off with men, because they appear to want the power of traditional gender roles, but not the responsibility!!
whether or not women are gentle and nurturing towards their children is not an issue of femininity, its an issue of parenting. responsible men should be gentle and nurturing towards their children too.
Most cases of violence against men probably go unreported because of the shame some men might feel and also because they might think they won't be taken seriously
The article i posted touched on those issues
I think those guys are already being the change they want to see in the world
I don't think a load of masculine men marching down the street with placards saying ''don't bash women'' will dissuade any person who is of that dispostition from bashing a woman in a domestic situation
Also in the name of equality where are the women marching against the domestic abuse of men?
I don't think anyone has argued men shouldn't be gentle and nurturing, but i think dad's often play differently with kids than mums and i think both styles have a certain role to play in a childs development
This has roots in evolution
The men went out in packs to hunt, the women went out to gather.
The male activities were more adrenaline based than the female activites
Even today which teaches their kid to ride a bike? Which teaches their kid to throw a ball? Which will often teach them to drive a car?
of course thats not to say that shame and fear dont have just as powerful an action in preventing women from reporting incidences of rape and violence.
being the change they want to see is obviously not having much of an effect. im sorry if you dont think its a cause that is worthy of demonstration or vocal support say by prominent people in the media, but i believe that some people might.
i think that they would argue that because the problem is heavily gendered, that the more pressing priority is raising awareness of the frequency and severity with which women are attacked. especially since men are not willing to march down the street with them.
i dont think we can really use evolution as a valid reason for behaving in certain ways anymore, because unlike animals we human beings are able to reflect on the reasons for our behaviours.
a parent of either sex is capable of teaching a child those things. and a child of either sex is just as capable of learning those things, and teaching those things to their children too. for example, single mothers do just fine in teaching their sons and daughters how to use the toilet, how to say please and thank you, how to cook a meal or sew a button on, how to put petrol in a car.
two of these skills you have mentioned - riding a bike, driving a car - have nothing to do with sex based evolution. they are very recent modern inventions of humankind and are taught and learned and practiced completely independently of sex based evolution.
What do women really want?
I think what a lot of woman really want is a man who is independantly strong but who is not going to diminish her freedoms...but that is a balancing act and that is what everyone is being asked to do more and more these days...walk tightropes
Firstly, I really enjoyed reading your posts @miur, you posted very provoking questions. However, I think the issue with this particular question is that it assumes that women can be generalized. Some women might idealistically want a man who cooks them waffles, because they saw their parents doing that, and associated it with love :b . But on a serious note, a lot of people, not just women, don't know exactly what kind of person they want until they find this person (people?) and they further have complicated motives and desires that can't exactly be summarized or deduced by the gender they identify as.
Though, perhaps some people could make the argument that physchologically healthy people in general want someone who will help them grow and allow them to have independence? Again, hard to say? In any case, I don't agree that all women really want anything: all women can't be put in a category because they're all quite different from each other.
Also, along the same vien, I was asked by a man a while ago why all women wanted "attractive, intelligent, rich, and powerful men." He was setting up for the argument that this was an unrealistic desire and that women shouldn't do this. In response to this, I would say, many people really have no idea what they want, so they look for cultural ideals to give them clues.
However, when it comes to "choosing a partner," things get a lot more complicated. There is initial attraction as well as long-term compatability. For example I've been attracted to people for a variety of reasons; once it was because the guy had a huge smile that went all the way to his eyes, and when he smiled, my stomach just dropped. However, it wasn't until several months later, when we had gotten along really well, that I felt like I had deeper feelings enough to be in a serious relationship. The point is, for some people (again, not all women or even men) it comes down to proven compatibility over-time.
Sure i don't disagree with any of that
I also want to make it very clear that i support womens rights
I also want to make it very clear that i think everyone is different and that everyone should be able to live how they want and to express themselves how they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone else
What i want to do however is point out some other aspects to this whole issue
So one area discussed was violence against women. I want to be very clear that i am against violence against women...but i am also EQUALLY against violence against men
If we truely believe in equality then we must protect both sexes because that is what 'equality' means
Its like the freedom of speech issue. Some people seem to get confused about that one. I remember once american jewish intellectual Noam Chomsky once incurred the wrath of the zionist Anti-Defamation League for saying that a holocaust revisionist should be allowed to speak.
The ADL and its supporters said the guy should not be allowed to speak or to enter certain countries and they branded the holocaust revisionist an 'anti-semite' before he even had a chance to speak and they branded Chomsky (who is jewish) an anti-semite or a 'self hating jew' for saying that the other guy had a right to speak
Chomsky was clear that he didn't necessarily agree with what the other guy was saying but he still believed that the other guy had a right to have his say because that is what freedom of speech means
Freedom of speech does not mean that only the people that certain people agree with should get to speak....it means that EVERYONE should get to speak and chomksy knows that and stood by that ideal
EQUALITY doens't mean protections just for women it means protections for women AND men....people need to keep that in mind when they are talking about 'equality'
have you heard in the mainstream media about how the sperm counts of men are going down:http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2012/dec/05/sperm-count-fall-is-it-real
Now there are reasons for this. men are being exposed to substances that reduce their fertility
In that youtube clip i posted above about the battle of the sexes there was a segment about how a chemical called 'Bisphenol A' (BPA) is used in food and drink containers which feminises men.
BPA is commonly found, as it said, in babies milk bottles. This is done deliberately in order to have an affect on men
There is an agenda to change our society and certain groups for example: the frankfurt school, the fabian society, the tavistock institute, the london school of economics and many others are playing a part in that process and if people want to understand the whole feminism movement and the other changes in our society then it is necessary to understand what the agenda is behind them all, who is doing it and why
I'll go into that in more detail in my next post
I should learn to just stop clicking on threads that have anything to do with feminism...
For the life of me I don't understand why people always feel the need to take one negative aspect of an extremely broad idea and conflate the two and decide the whole thing is useless.
It's really not that hard to understand. Feminism = equality for the sexes (focusing largely on women's issues because women are the marginalized sex). That is EXTREMELY broad and encompasses an infinite number of varitions on the idea. If there are some iterations you disagree with there's no need to throw out the whole thing.
Why do we still need feminism? Her's one example. Just a few years ago I was in a college literature class and we were reading an essay written, if I remember correctly (can't remember the author's name or the title) sometime in the 19th century. It was written by one of the few women privileged enough to be formally educated at the time (when women were considered property), and she was advocating for women's education. She also criticized the culturally endorsed self-entitlement of men who believed that they were a valuable commodity, simply for being men, when so many women based their self worth on being chosen as a wife.
In this class, the professor was a man and all the students were women. When we discussed the essay, the consensus among most of the girls in the class was that the author was just bitter and jealous because she couldn't attract a man.
AND THIS WAS IN A COLLEGE CLASSROOM. AN INSTITUTE OF HIGHER EDUCATION. WHICH THESE GIRLS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ATTEND IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR WOMEN LIKE THIS AUTHOR.
We're not talking just a handful of students, either. This was a classroom of at least twenty, probably more.
Why is there so little respect for people who fight for gender equality, and why do so many persist in these sexist, disempowering attitudes toward women?
We don't live in a post-gender society, however much people might like to think we do (how can anyone even imply that when issues like same sex marriage are still... issues?). You can say "Well women have equal rights now, they can vote, they work, what's the problem?" That's so shortsighted. Those are the basic, bare bones rights that everyone should have. So no, we shouldn't stop complaining because society finally threw us a bone. On a cultural level, there's still MUCH to be done. And it's not all about women's equality. It's about everyone who is affected by the patriarchy (i.e., everyone). Feminism is about making things more fair for everyone, which is why we *need* so many subsets to focus on specific categories of people. We have to recognize the intersectionality of feminist issues with race, social status, sexual orientation, etc.
Another common fallacy is that men are disenfranchised too, so it's wrong for us to focus on women's issues. Or the semantics of "feminism sounds too exclusive to women, why can't we all just be humanists?" The fact is that all gender-based issues stem from the current patriarchal system—even the issues affecting men specifically. Men, as a broad group, are privileged. Privilege comes with its drawbacks. When society is structured around patriarchal ideals, men are afforded more opportunities, but there's also pressure on them to be invincible paragons of masculinity. Hence the issues that were pointed out in this thread, like men feeling too ashamed to report domestic violence, or others not recognizing violence against them as legitimate. Or men not having a fair shot in custody battles.
These problems stem from the SAME source as women's problems: patriarchy. It's unfair to everyone. Pointing out that "men have problems too!" does not somehow invalidate feminism. And it should not be called "humanism" because 1) that lumps everyone into one vague category (which is too broad to base any meaningful action on anyway), denying that there are gender-based problems in our society and around the world, and 2) Women spearheaded these issues, so I don't understand why people are so bitter about letting them have that distinction. The feminist movement spurred us to explore issues of gender and how they affect everyone, not just women; and it grew to encompass issues of sexuality and enabled later groups like LGBTQ to do the same. Feminists laid the groundwork for later movements, and is scope is ever increasing. It's not some exclusive women's club, but women did spearhead it, and that's a fact. Erasing the word "feminism" and replacing it with some vague PC term like "humanism" is just denying that fact and disregarding history. Why are we so eager to neutralize women's achievements?