School, A path to modern enslavement?
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Ren
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Yup, agreed. In my field that's already more and more the case. Online certificates are very widespread already.
pzl2lxie81mc
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For me, this isn’t about how differences between the sexes is keeping boys from succeeding, or a question of girls vs boys. I said “girls are doing better than boys”. I did not say “girls are better than boys”. If you’re reading it like that, then you’re the one who sees this from a hierarchical, competitive, perspective.
The reason why I am not blaming the system or teachers is because if I take into account education systems worldwide and how boys are doing in those other systems, it tells me that it’s not because the US is too nurturing or too in favor of girls that’s pushing them ahead. Instead, it seems to me that it’s mostly familial, cultural, political and economics forces that is driving the divide.
Also, I’m not entirely sure boys are failing. Average GPA’s for both boys and girls have risen since the ‘70s. The difference is that it has risen more for girls than boys. So, it’s not like boys are doing worse. Average SAT scores for boys is not worse than girls, which tells me the boys who are choosing to go college are doing just as well as girls, but that there are less of them.
I’m not a man, but I worked in a male dominated field and went to school mostly with men and I can tell you, they didn’t have a problem going to school and getting good grades. It has not been my experience that schools are failing men.
I think what’s happening here, like in Norway and in China, is that boys are choosing non-academic routes more than girls because they can and because they want to. The OP here isn’t complaining about studying so hard that he wants to quit. He’s saying that school doesn’t fit him and that’s reason enough to quit. Kind of different things. He’s coming from a place of choice, a feeling that there are better alternatives for him. Maybe girls are doing better in school, are more motivated, because they don’t feel they have other options.
The reason why I am not blaming the system or teachers is because if I take into account education systems worldwide and how boys are doing in those other systems, it tells me that it’s not because the US is too nurturing or too in favor of girls that’s pushing them ahead. Instead, it seems to me that it’s mostly familial, cultural, political and economics forces that is driving the divide.
Also, I’m not entirely sure boys are failing. Average GPA’s for both boys and girls have risen since the ‘70s. The difference is that it has risen more for girls than boys. So, it’s not like boys are doing worse. Average SAT scores for boys is not worse than girls, which tells me the boys who are choosing to go college are doing just as well as girls, but that there are less of them.
I’m not a man, but I worked in a male dominated field and went to school mostly with men and I can tell you, they didn’t have a problem going to school and getting good grades. It has not been my experience that schools are failing men.
I think what’s happening here, like in Norway and in China, is that boys are choosing non-academic routes more than girls because they can and because they want to. The OP here isn’t complaining about studying so hard that he wants to quit. He’s saying that school doesn’t fit him and that’s reason enough to quit. Kind of different things. He’s coming from a place of choice, a feeling that there are better alternatives for him. Maybe girls are doing better in school, are more motivated, because they don’t feel they have other options.
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April
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You sound like the two ISTPs I know
Nothing wrong with thinking outside the box just make sure you find someone who won't bog you down with those kinds of status quo expectations or you'll be miserable.
54321
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You sound like the two ISTPs I know
Well, i'm actually miserable when i do have to go to school and all what comes together. I'm just not made for a planned out life by society. No big successful person has ever become successful by doing what everybody else does.
RonjaRaeubertochter
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I wasn't a big fan of school either. Yet, like others said before, it teaches you not only information, but also social skills. You'll have to learn how to cope with bullies, but you'll also make friends.
The problem I see with school is the tendency to despire instead of inspire. Information trumps transformation. Of course, you can be lucky - and I was - to have a couple of inspiring teachers. But they themselves usually swim against mainstream. So, my advice would be to take in what makes sense and establish a sense of what would need changing. And then go out there and follow your path. In the end, an official degree can make things a bit easier in career life.
Someone who can put that into better words than I can might be Cornel West. So I leave this lecture as a footnote.
The problem I see with school is the tendency to despire instead of inspire. Information trumps transformation. Of course, you can be lucky - and I was - to have a couple of inspiring teachers. But they themselves usually swim against mainstream. So, my advice would be to take in what makes sense and establish a sense of what would need changing. And then go out there and follow your path. In the end, an official degree can make things a bit easier in career life.
Someone who can put that into better words than I can might be Cornel West. So I leave this lecture as a footnote.
jkxx
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This is indeed true and is what made by far the most noticeable difference for me - the few teachers who were inspiring and cared about getting the students interested had the most positive influence on me - one introduced the MBTI to me, another Carl Sagan, a third made mathematics interesting enough that for a while I thought it was kind of enchanting. On the other hand for the ones who didn't particularly care it showed and I learned nothing of consequence (nor was motivated to learn any more about the subjects) and by now have long forgotten the material.
pzl2lxie81mc
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The resistance is against people’s tendency to look for physiological difference in order to explain complex societal problems. Boys are fidgety and that’s why they’re failing school and therefore school curriculums have to be changed and women teachers need to stop discriminating against boys. I find a lot of issues with that line of thinking.
From how I interpret the numbers, boys now are doing slightly better academically than they did fifty years ago. However, girls are doing much better than they did fifty years ago, and are now doing better than boys. So, explaining the gap has to start with understanding what’s going on with the girls. What is driving their growth? And why isn’t it driving the boys?
For me, when I frame the question like that, I think of some of the same things you guys bring up. Girls tend to read a lot. Boys prefer physical activity. I just think about it differently. More girls are choosing academics than boys are. Why? Because school is fun and easy for girls? Because their teachers just love them and their jobs so much? Because they’d rather sit and listen to a lecture inside rather than playing outside? To me, girls and boys are similar in this aspect. But, where there’s a big difference is in how girls feel about working in manual labor. Very few girls think, I can drop out of school and go work in construction. Boys might feel they have more options in terms of physical labor - options not available to girls.
So, to me, it’s about letting boys do what they want to do and making sure there is a future for them in that. The boys who are choosing college - they’re not underperforming. The boys who want to work with their hands - that is where my concern is because those jobs are shrinking. But, if the answer for them is that they have to go into white collar jobs because there will be fewer blue collar ones in the future, then yes, I’d agree that we should help them figure out how to fit themselves into those jobs. But, let’s not blame women teachers, undercut girl’s achievements or ask the education system be what it isn’t. Being an accountant, there’s not a lot of physical stimulation in that.
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It seems to me that you are still thinking in terms of blame and fault instead of pragmatic improvement of this crisis.
I think we are talking past each other, I can't resume this line of conversation until I can effectively explain so that there is no further miscommunication.
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Whiskey
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This is pretty vague though. How does going to school prevent one from doing this (aside from having to pay student loans perhaps)?
I feel like you are ignoring the points people are saying to you and then just repeating your own opinion like a mantra. Can you please answer to some of the very specific points i outline below:
boys are dropping out of school. That is a crisis for boys
Boys are not going into higher education in anything like the numbers women are. That's a crisis for boys
Boys are being drugged much more than girls. That's a crisis for boys
Boys are developing autism at much higher rates than girls. That's a crisis for boys
Boys are growing up with less and less male role models around. That's a crisis for boys
There are powerful lobby groups with an underlying ideology who push for girls to be given advantages and boys don't have anyone fighting their corner. That's a crisis for boys
Masculinity is now being demonised by ideologues in higher education. That's a crisis for boys
"Epidemic Of Fatherlessness" – Mike Rowe Reminds The World Of The Importance Of Dads
by Tyler Durden
Wed, 03/28/2018 - 17:05
Dirty Jobs’ Mike Rowe recently noted that he believes that many Americans are dissatisfied with their lives because they no longer appreciate the intrinsic value of work.
A couple years ago, when Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt were getting divorced, Jolie was quoted as saying, "It never even crossed my mind that my son would need a father."
I was struck by her comment, and I remember wondering how many other Americans might share her view. At the time, I didn’t think many. But today, I’m convinced the number is significant. I'm also amazed at how quickly fatherhood has fallen out of favor. Can you imagine a celebrity - or anyone for that matter - saying such a thing just twenty years ago?
This week’s episode of RTF is about a guy named Carlos who found an effective way to deprogram bullies. Please watch it. It's a great story about a great guy making a real difference around a serious issue. It occurred to me though, half way through filming, that bullying – like so many other social ills in today’s headlines – isn’t really a problem at all; it’s a symptom.
In my view, a symptom of a society that seems to value fatherhood less and less.
The facts seem pretty clear.
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes – 5 times the average. (US Dept. Of Health/Census)
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.
85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)
80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes – 14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)
43% of US children live without their father [US Department of Census]
Is it really so surprising to learn that a majority of bullies also come from fatherless homes? As do a majority of school shooters? As do a majority of older male shooters?
I know this is controversial, and I'm sorry to inject an uncomfortable element into a post about a "feel-good" show, but I think it’s important to consider the possibility that this thing we like to call “an epidemic of bullying,” is really an “epidemic of fatherlessness.” I also think it’s reasonable to conclude that our society is sending a message to men of all ages that is decidedly mixed.
Think about it. On the one hand, we’re telling them to “man-up" whenever the going gets tough. On the other, we’re condemning a climate of "toxic masculinity" at every turn. If that strikes you as confusing, imagine being a fourteen-year old boy with no father figure to help you make sense of it.
Anyway, the bullying crisis is real, but the root cause has nothing to do with video games, or guns, or social media, or rock and roll, or sugary drinks, or any of the other boogymen currently in fashion. Nor is it a function of some new chromosome unique to the current crop of kids coming of age. Kids are the same now as they were a hundred years ago – petulant, brave, arrogant, earnest, frightened, and cocksure. It’s the parents who have changed. It’s the parents who have put their own happiness above the best interests of their kids. It’s the parents who actually believe “the village” will raise their kids, when the village is profoundly incapable of doing anything of the sort.
Of course, I could be wrong. I often am. But I can tell you with certainty that whatever the root causes of bullying may be, Carlos Flores is part of the solution. Watch the video and see for yourself. And if you'd like to see more men like him, doing similar things in other places, do me a favor and share his story. It's a good one. And imitation is also part of the solution...
Thanks,
Mike
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...mportance-dads
good points
also concerning hormones and who has got the worse deal: higher testosterone levels have meant that men have over thousands of years tended to bare the brunt of the more physical and risky jobs in society
even today they are far more likely to be injured or killed in the work place and probably spend far more time in states of physical exhaustion and physical discomfort
pzl2lxie81mc
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I am ignoring some points to be concise. Obviously I have my own viewpoint on this and not a complete one at that. So, there are other points I’m not addressing because I haven’t formed an opinion on.
Here is where I agree and disagree with your points.
1. boys are dropping out of school. That is a crisis for boys
Percentage of Dropouts from 1960–2010
The percentage of high school dropouts, ages 16-24, has declined since 1960. The percentage of male students who dropped out of high school has decreased from 27.8% in 1960 to 8.5% in 2010. The percentage of female dropouts has decreased from 26.7% to 6.3%.
I’m repeating what I said before, but it doesn’t seem to me boys are failing when you compare them to where they were before. Again, they’ve improved, but just not as much as girls. In 1960, the difference between the dropout rates between girls and boys was 1.1%, increasing to 2.4% by 2010. The alarm is over the increasing gap, but it is wrong to conclude that it’s because boys are failing. It’s that girls are doing better.
2. Boys are not going into higher education in anything like the numbers women are. That's a crisis for boys
When girls are raising the average GPA, that means that boys who would’ve gone to college three decades ago with the same GPA are now being displaced. Say everyone with an average GPA of 3.0 went to college thirty years ago. Now, that bar has been raised by girls to 3.2. The result is lower college enrollment for boys.
This question of displacement is really hard to answer. If you think about the far right, their issue against illegal immigration is the same as this one here. In a capitalist society where the system is more efficient by hiring the best qualified workers, you would just allow the displacement to take place without any consideration of the consequences to the displaced. The right’s solution to this in order to preserve capitalism is to limit the number of people in order to reverse the displacement of their own. The left’s solution is leaning more towards what you have in socialist systems, like in the Scandinavian countries. There is still displacement, but the displaced (and everyone else) are taken care of through the welfare system.
But as pointed out before, a college education isn’t that limited of a resource. Almost anyone can go to community college. What’s limited are spots at top-ranked universities. So, to me, the question of lower male enrollment in college goes back to choice.
That’s why I’m thinking about what could be making the choice between entering college or not different for girls than boys. Why girls are so motivated. Why boys aren’t choosing community college. Girls don’t need the help right now, but you have to understand what’s going on first before jumping to the conclusion it’s because boys are fidgety and that’s why they’re being left behind.
3. Boys are being drugged much more than girls. That's a crisis for boys
Boys are drugged more because parents are choosing to drug them. Boys in other countries, and let’s take South Korea as an example, go to school for longer hours and then go to private after-study programs on top of that. They don’t have ADHD rates anywhere as high as in the US. (Though, they do have higher suicid rates, so trade-offs.)
Nowhere else is there ADHD rates as high as here. Are Americans genetically predisposed to it? We can’t be because we’re from all these other countries. And even if boys are being misdiagnosed in other countries, that isn’t preventing them from performing in school. So, I disagree that boys being drugged more is a crisis for boys. I would agree that inadequate parenting is a crisis for boys. Then, we can talk about how to make it possible for parents to do a better job instead of asking schools to do it for them.
4. Boys are developing autism at much higher rates than girls. That's a crisis for boys
I haven’t looked into autism, but suspect it’s similar to what I just said about ADHD.
5. Boys are growing up with less and less male role models around. That's a crisis for boys
I haven’t talked about this, and I’m speaking to a broader point, but I do agree that there is a crisis for men in terms of changing gender norms. As society has gotten less sexist, the changes in norms, I agree, is harder for men to adjust to than women. It’s been easier for women to push out their boundaries while being harder for men to draw in theirs. I mean, look at the grandad in that show about that family who makes duck calls. It’s a long road changing from someone like that.
I don’t have a solution for this. I imagine it feels like being perpetually stuck in middle school when you don’t know what you’re wearing is right and you haven’t yet figured out your own style. I do think it’s an issue and there ought to be more focus on it. I just don’t know what to say about it.
so because less people die now of the plague then died in the past we shouldn't worry about the plague?
I'm pretty sure that is just gaming the numbers to suit your argument
also if you look at this graph you can see at the end of the line for white boys there is an uptick so something has happened
2. Boys are not going into higher education in anything like the numbers women are. That's a crisis for boys
so we have to consider why school is benefitting girls more than boys...
no i don't think its comparable
their argument relating to large scale immigration would probably revolve around things like the depression of wages (more workers means lower wages paid), larger tax demands to maintain a more heavily burdened welfare state and cultural impacts such as a decline in national identity and societal cohesion and stability. They would also likely express fears over who is coming into the country for example whether there were criminals or terrorists entering the country among those coming looking for work or fleeing conflict
maybe the solution would be to stop disadvantaging boys so that they could be trained up to do the jobs thereby not leaving large numbers of the population despondent and turning to crime and drink and drugs? Also it would mean less unemployed people who then have to fall back on the welfare state
so what pays for the welfare system?
the super rich keep their money offshore in tax havens don't they? so they don't have to pay
the people who then have to pay are the people who work for a living: 'the middle' eg teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen, farmers, small business owners etc
so that means that going by your description of what the 'the left'is doing they will destroy the middle class which then basically leaves the super rich and a massive serf class of poor people. The technical name for this is 'neo-fuedalism'. Does this check out with peoples complaints of the obama/clinton regime? well yeah people were complaining that the middle class were being gutted
This also explains why the big corporations have so much support for the left because they are owned by the super rich who then gain more power under neo-fuedalism while everyone else becomes a poor serf
not if they are dropping out of school before they can choose
and we are saying they are more 'motivated' because the style and culture within modern schools is more amenable to them than to boys
i believe i do understand what's going on. I believe its you who doesn't acknowledge what's going on
no boys are drugged more because they are referred more by their schools and then prescribed drugs by doctors. parents tend to go along with what schools and doctors say
yeah so their education system is not failing boys
not possible as 'americans' are from all around the world. They are a mixed gene pool so if they are predisposed to it then everyone around the world is
you need to look for another reason
unless the schools are providing bad diets to the children and vending machines containing high sugar drinks and energy drinks
also perhaps the schools and society in general is not providing the discipline that boys need or the male role models or the outlets for boystrous behaviour
no its a seperate issue. In some states in the US there are now 1 in 50 kids developing autism and most of those are boys
the question is 'why is that now happening?'
I don't agree that society was 'sexist'. i think people had predetermined roles that were dependent on biology. Once technology took up the slack of housewives it enabled them to go into the work place which then drove down wages so that now both people in a couple have to work whereas in the past only one had to work
cause and effect
changing norms is not the same issue as fatherlessness. You didn't really address that issue or why it has become such an issue in the last 30 years
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pzl2lxie81mc
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@kinglear I think you’ve stated your points and are now repeating them, as am I. The source of our different opinions is you believe the system is keeping boys down and mine is that girls have more pressure to stay with school. In the end, these are both conjectures and it’s good that there’s a conversation about this. I am going to leave it here.
some peoples opinions are formed by what they want to believe whilst others inform their opinions through information
it really comes down to how dedicated people are to finding the truth of the matter
the truth doesn't care how we feel about it
sometimes it is unsettling to our ego so then it comes down to whether we allow our ego to assuage us with pleasing narratives that are restful to our mind or whether we stand strong in the face of harsh reality and change our behaviours accordingly
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All you did here was state a bunch of meaningless baiting passive aggressive bullshit.
Could have saved time by just saying "fight me bruh"
You got that right. Too bad you're not a proponent of it.