The 'Evil' Function

[VH]

Can't have one without the other.

True, but there is a noticable difference between Dominant/Inferior vs. Secondary/Tertiary.

Se dominants are excellent at asserting their physical prowess (a good example would be team sports), but sometimes lack those 'reflexes'.

Se secondary or tertiaries are extremely in tune with their reflexes (a good example would be acrobatics/gymnastics, or sparring). They might notbe able to match Se dominants for sheer prowess, but their reactiveness is off the charts. "How did you do that?" "I dunno. I just do." They're also very good at "Show me once and I've got it."

Se inferiors have a drive to assert themselves physically, but often focus on single expression activities (a good example would be martial arts katas, dance, or target shooting).

Ti can really help, but Se/Fi's aren't slouches.

Fact. Fi's tend to be "naturals" while Ti's tend to be "technicians".

 

[Orion]

I do have a type me thread, state your reasons. I'm now knowledgable enough in MBTI that just "you seem xxxx" won't be enough to convince me. Sorry if that sounds harsh.

Nope not harsh, that's fair. I am assimilating data about you over time to make an intelligent response eventually, but like you said...

Lol, I've been told by some people that I'm the only person they can't type.

:decision:

 

[88chaz88]

True, but there is a noticable difference between Dominant/Inferior vs. Secondary/Tertiary.

Se dominants are excellent at asserting their physical prowess (a good example would be team sports), but sometimes lack those 'reflexes'.

Se secondary or tertiaries are extremely in tune with their reflexes (a good example would be acrobatics/gymnastics, or sparring). They might notbe able to match Se dominants for sheer prowess, but their reactiveness is off the charts. "How did you do that?" "I dunno. I just do." They're also very good at "Show me once and I've got it."

Se inferiors have a drive to assert themselves physically, but often focus on single expression activities (a good example would be martial arts katas, dance, or target shooting).



Fact. Fi's tend to be "naturals" while Ti's tend to be "technicians".

I pretty much agree with all of this, except it's rather harder for Se inferiors to keep up with the Se secondaries (which really rule the roost in all sports). I'm not saying INxJs can't keep up, but they're certainly not as naturally tuned to it as the ISxP, ESxP, or ENxJ.

 

[VH]

Socionics assumes that the Dominant and Secondary functions make up the Ego. While I'm not especially open to the notions of Socionics due to some outlandish theories like MBTI type having an effect on physical facial features (seriously people?), I can't fully dismiss everything because of that. And there does seem to be some merit with this theory, especially with respect to the 'evil' function.

For example, the Ego of an INFJ (or ENFJ) in this theory would be comprised of Ni and Fe. Therefore, the inverse functions Te and Si would be the opposition to the Ego. If a person's Ego assumes they are inherently 'good' (even subconsciously) then they would assume that anyone who opposes their 'good intentions' must therefore be 'evil'.

I think INFJs can be hyper aware of this effect as good vs. evil because Ni and Fe create a focus on morality and tends to polarize things into good and evil, even without consciously doing so. "We are the good guys. They are the bad guys" as Fe is prone to establish us vs. them mentalities, and Ni is prone to seeing the deeper implications. Therefore, this might be causing that 'evil' effect toward Te's directives and domineering that devalue people and collective harmony... and in some cases Si's refusal to see the big picture or break with tradition when they are causing problems, yet we see the clear solution in the form of change.

In the case of INTJs, Ni and Te comprise the ego, and therefore Fe and Si would be the opposition to their Ego. Again, the extroverted function would be the most obvious, and therefore more resisted function.

Huh. Looks like Beebe was right on this one. We have other theories that support this notion.

 

[VH]

I pretty much agree with all of this, except it's rather harder for Se inferiors to keep up with the Se secondaries (which really rule the roost in all sports). I'm not saying INxJs can't keep up, but they're certainly not as naturally tuned to it as the ISxP, ESxP, or ENxJ.

Absolutely. I wasn't implying otherwise. I've been sparring in martial arts, fencing, and weapons forms since I was 5 years old. My dad was a Kung Fu instructor, and the school he taught at had us sparring almost immedietely. From there I branched into other styles, got into weapons forms, took fencing in college, dabbled in Kendo. That said, I love to spar. I've also got friends that are still in my life that I used to spar with, and have since gotten them typed (with the obvious margin of error). Here's what I can say with a strong degree of certainty.

Se dominants - REALLY tough opponents, but I usually win by thinking my way through the fight and getting them to tie themselves up to create an opening, but it takes a lot of work.
Se secondaries and tertiaries - BEST FIGHTS of my life. Tough opponents. Perfectly matched.
Se inferiors - Moderate challenge in a sparring situation. They rely on a limited set of tricks too much and have a hard time adapting, which is easily exploited by going outside the box which will almost always create an opening.

(Doh! I'm an ENFJ.)

Edit: Then again, this could just be the thing I'm good at, and since I've been doing it from the time I was a child, it could have developed my Se... which might actually make sense since I've always felt like I kinda suck at Fe. Hmm... I need to ponder this.

Carry on.

Additional Edit: I have two INTJ friends who have been into martial arts and what not for quite some time, and they are very good and challenging sparring partners. In hindsight, I don't at all think I would be nearly as good at this sort of thing if I had not been put into it at an early age.

I make a retraction here.

Each degree of Se and Ni offer a degree of advantage, that allows these sorts of physical skills to be learned more quickly, with Se/Ni secondary/tertiary having the greatest advantage. In the end, it really boils down to experience and practice. Certain types need less experience and practice to develop the same degree of mastery, while others have to spend more.

What we're really discussing here is raw talent, which to be honest, I didn't have a lot of at age 5 compared to the other kids.

Okay, got that straightened out.

I am sooooo thankful that my father put me in Kung Fu when I was that age, which allowed me to develop my Se more than I would have naturally.

(Hmm... I wonder if this early Se development is throwing off my type assessment?)

 

[Kmal]

evil is a stretch, in my opinion. annoying though, that's sufficient. usually it's just the immature estjs that i want to destroy. my neighbor, and previous employer was an estj and we got along just fine; pretty well actually. we were most certainly not "buds" or anything, but i wouldn't call him evil. rather, the immaturity in the one ESTJ i did know, and want to destroy, was what I didnt like; if you want to rationalize it as the immaturity + Te-Si ego, I can see that.

Ni-Fe-Ti-Se -- Ne-Fi-Te-Si
Te-Si-Ne-Fi -- Ti-Fe-Ni-Fe

Ego - Inferior Ego -- Shadow Ego -- Inferior Shadow Ego
I think it's just someone projecting your weakest functions with confidence and, in a sense, being a step ahead of you; but it goes both ways, so it's almost shady in interaction, since neither one of you know what the other's motives are.

 

[VH]

evil is a stretch, in my opinion. annoying though, that's sufficient. usually it's just the immature estjs that i want to destroy. my neighbor, and previous employer was an estj and we got along just fine; pretty well actually. we were most certainly not "buds" or anything, but i wouldn't call him evil. rather, the immaturity in the one ESTJ i did know, and want to destroy, was what I didnt like; if you want to rationalize it as the immaturity + Te-Si ego, I can see that.

Ni-Fe-Ti-Se -- Ne-Fi-Te-Si
Te-Si-Ne-Fi -- Ti-Fe-Ni-Fe

Ego - Inferior Ego -- Shadow Ego -- Inferior Shadow Ego
I think it's just someone projecting your weakest functions with confidence and, in a sense, being a step ahead of you; but it goes both ways, so it's almost shady in interaction, since neither one of you know what the other's motives are.

Yes, I've been putting the word 'evil' in quotes to represent that it isn't exactly what I mean. I don't literally think any function is evil.

However, I really like this post. Good clear statements.

 

[Kmal]

"Evil" = different/unseeable motive? Yeah, that makes sense. That, plus being a step ahead of you, and having to wonder if their motives and end result will be in line with your ego--

 

[Faye]

Why would you call something evil that you use every minute of every day- at least while awake anyway?

 

[Kmal]

Why would you call something evil that you use every minute of every day- at least while awake anyway?

As was said, evil is a metaphor, not literally. Regardless, you use it much, much less than your other functions-- some people are afraid of the dark, or of the unknown. In this case, Te-Si, for INFJs, is the unknown.

 

[VH]

"Evil" = different/unseeable motive? Yeah, that makes sense. That, plus being a step ahead of you, and having to wonder if their motives and end result will be in line with your ego--

... and seeking to oppose your own motives

The only reason I'm using the word 'evil' is because Beebe's theories state that the 'demon' (8th function) can often be viewed as 'evil' by someone. He even uses the quotes, so I'm pretty sure he's after the definition that we're gleaning here. I'm just under the impression that this effect is more commonly toward the function that opposes a person's 'trickster' (7th function).

Si opposes Ni by refusing to make way for the changes that Ni has forseen need to be made.
Te opposes Fe by insisting on its own directives and edicts that violate Fe's sense of harmony and often its sense of how things should be.

It's starting to look like the reasoning function that opposes your reasoning function is the one that people see as the most offensive. TJs see Fe as toxic and emotionally misguided. FJs tend to see Te as domineering and heartless. TPs tend to see Fi as annoyingly selfish. FPs tend to see Ti as brutally insensitive.

The P function oppositions just seem to be a counter spin on the issues, where as the J functions provide actual resistance.

As was said, evil is a metaphor, not literally. Regardless, you use it much, much less than your other functions-- some people are afraid of the dark, or of the unknown. In this case, Te-Si, for INFJs, is the unknown.

And because these are their last functions... it isn't until an INFJ truly develops an understanding of Te and Si that they will have reached their true potential.

 

[Kmal]

... and seeking to oppose your own motives

I dont know if opposition is always 100% accurate. The end result of either of their motives can be "good," i think; as perceived by the other. Maybe some examples would serve this speculation, but I can't think of any right now.

 

[VH]

I dont know if opposition is always 100% accurate. The end result of either of their motives can be "good," i think; as perceived by the other. Maybe some examples would serve this speculation, but I can't think of any right now.

I think it is in those moments where the thought processes oppose one another that the other function gets most often seen as 'evil'. It's an indirect attack on the ego.

I have an ISTJ friend who frequently comes at the same problems from entirely different perspectives, yet we almost always end up at the same result. It's not the ends that are in question, it's the means. And obviously, this isn't a constant effect. It's just frequent enough to be noticed, and in some cases resented.

 

[Kmal]

I think it is in those moments where the thought processes oppose one another that the other function gets most often seen as 'evil'. It's an indirect attack on the ego.

I have an ISTJ friend who frequently comes at the same problems from entirely different perspectives, yet we almost always end up at the same result. It's not the ends that are in question, it's the means. And obviously, this isn't a constant effect. It's just frequent enough to be noticed, and in some cases resented.

Yeah, indirect attack on the ego is a great way of saying it, simply by projecting your weakest functions as their strongest. Having the means being questioned, regardless of intent, can be frustrating, especially if the intent is 'good' (can 'good' transcend mbti? i think so). Consciously questioning the motives and expressing it is where most the conflict arises. Subconsciously creates the shady environment, if it follows the same pattern.

So, how to convey the end, without misunderstanding and having the means being questioned? Personally, having an objective around ESTJs that we can work on together makes interaction so much easier and pleasant. Just socializing with them can be grating after a while, and conflict almost always occurs.

 

[VH]

Yeah, indirect attack on the ego is a great way of saying it

Thanks.

(can 'good' transcend mbti? i think so)

Absolutely. Actual good and evil are outside the realm of MBTI as they are the result of moral intentions. Both good and evil can be manifested through any cognitive function.

So, how to convey the end, without misunderstanding and having the means being questioned? Personally, having an objective around ESTJs that we can work on together makes interaction so much easier and pleasant. Just socializing with them can be grating after a while, and conflict almost always occurs.

I think this is because when there is a clear goal, the functions support one another. When there is no goal to align the functions into a direction, then they will polarize themselves into their natural states which is unfortunately inherently antagonistic.

Understanding and tolerance are the only things I can suggest as a fix. I know in my own case, as well as my afore mentioned ISTJ friend who is also quite a cognitive functions expert, that learning about these functions has helped me accept other functions greatly. I am no longer as inclined to take offense (unless it's something that I don't understand and therefore apply my own meter) by the means of other functions because I now know that they are not intending the same things that I would be intending if I were acting that way. I now see the benevolence in their actions and intentions. The more we understand about the other functions the easier it gets to 'see where they are coming from' and not only accept it but support it. My ISTJ friend has told me that he used to see things I did as annoying, but now sees them as beneficial. I share his sentiment toward him.

As for how to minimize our 'offensiveness' to others who do not understand our means... I'm still working on that. It's more difficult to predict and accommodate those sensibilities than it is to simply understand someone else because you have to understand them before you can accommodate them.

 

[Saru Inc]

anyways,


I was thinking about the whole INTJs hate ESFJs, and INFJs hate ESTJs. Maybe its just the E in them that makes us hate them more then their I side? I mean, I hate Si way more than Te, but admittedly I do hate ESTJs moreso than ISTJs. In fact I get a long well with a bunch of Istjs. I think the fact that ESTJs, due to being, well, E aggravates the bruises and makes it worse.

 

[VH]

If the basis of this theory is the fact that each type's Ego is composed of the dominant and secondary functions, then the following matrix can be used to determine the types that are most likely offended by the various functions.

Function | Primary | Incidental
Fe | INTJ, ISTJ | ESTJ, ENTJ
Ni | ESFJ, ESTJ | ISTJ, ISFJ
Se | INFP, INTP | ENFP, ENTP
Ti | ENFP, ESFP | INFP, ISFP

Te |INFJ, ISFJ | ESFJ, ENFJ
Si |ENFJ, ENTJ | INTJ, INFJ
Ne | ISFP, ISTP | ESFP, ESTP
Fi | ENTP, ESTP | INTP, ISTP

For example, Fe is most likely to offend INTJ and ISTJ, but will often offend ESTJ and ENTJ because it opposes the 'Ego' functions of those types.

 

[acd]

I've thought about this.
The only thing I came up with, might be Se.
Every so often, I go through these phases where I over indulge and over do it with different activities--not to the extent of self-destruction.. but I will say that I am much more inclined to partake in food and drink and dance and the world of people... and I'm not my usual reclusive and introspective self.

It usually happens after a period of stress where I say, "That's it. I don't care. My priority is fun, now."

The nature of Se—to take appearances for granted, take the supposed meaning of signs as true, live in the moment, act now and reflect later, instinctively go with whatever feels good and reject whatever feels bad... It's all so contrary to everything I believe in. It seems so devoid of meaning to me, so animalistic.

Se makes me think of hedonism, excess, shallowness, lack of self control, and lemming behavior.

I don't lack self control when I go into this phase...because like I said, I never get extreme with it.. No drugs or sleeping around. Just lots of hedonism (by my standards), excess and yes.. shallow interactions.

I wouldn't say it's evil per se, because it is a lot of fun and it's never caused me to hurt myself or anyone else... I've mostly just hid from my worries with it--but it does wear me out and leave me really wanting to connect with someone on a deeper level. I don't go into this phase often at all. In fact, the last time was about two years ago.

Then, I think I use Ni to imagine myself as who I could be or how I could deal with such and such a thing.. and then I work to transform into that to lift myself out of that period of hedonism and get down to business actually working things out.

Other than that.. I think my most developed functions are Ne Ni and Fe and Fi... I don't have issues with those, based on my understanding of the descriptions I've read. I know they are not a set that can be put into an mbti type... but I've relied heavily on those four.


Over the past few years, I have really been putting Te to use. It is something akin to a baby who learns how to say "No" and probably equally annoying to those around me .

And I am actually really comfortable with Si..
Ti is all about checking theoretical frame works for inconsistencies, non? If my understanding is correct, I enjoy using that function because it feels like a work out for the brain.
If none of this makes sense it could be because I only vaguely know anything about cognitive functions.

I'm not good at picking cognitive functions out in other people. Also, I tend to regard people in a very good light until I see them consistently do something that makes me change my view of them...In other people, the things that I see as most negative are callousness, making plans or decisions based on hard logic regardless of the expense of people's feelings or needs...But what function is that? Te? I use Te myself, but I use it differently than that. So it is hard for me to say which functions are evil in others, because it depends on how the individual uses what they have.

I also cannot stand it when people cannot be polite to others.. or when people assume their knowledge or position is superior to others and then treat them accordingly. I also do not know which function this would fall under.

 

[Trifoilum]

Si. That the only true answer is the one that's done most often, while true in some case, is also APPALLING AS HELL. Mostly because while it depends on where you stand-- the attitude is the same.

Te, the 7th, seems to be the 'trickster' (or savage child); it's really hard to understand, and in that sense, I understand if people will hate what they can't understand.

I think Si is worse, because in some ways I can understand Si, but cannot understand it.


For some reason I was reminded on 'beware he who fights monsters' quote.

 

[Kmal]

but not Si as a primary, because ISFJs and ISTJs (well, some of them lol) are decent; but estjs-- it takes a very mature estj to not annoy me, or try to create a conflict with me.