The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

My Bible shows a small star next to verses in the Old Testament that referred to the Messiah and things about Him. What do you think, that unearthed scrolls and writings were not from the Word? Isaiah 53 was written about whom?
 
QuickTwist said:
"However, Rees does admit that bereavement experiences cannot account for the disciples’ simultaneous group encounters with the risen Jesus."
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Grief hallucinations don't need to account for these "group encounters." You are assuming these are historical accounts. I don't think they are. I think what OFTEN happens, especially when someone is deeply loved, is that news of these kinds of experiences get passed around orally. The half dozen people who do have grief hallucinations becomes 12, becomes 100, becomes an entire crowd.

There was once a Sufi Mystic named Al Hallaj. He was also an itinerant teacher like Jesus and had many, many disciples. There are accounts of him making the same sort of ambiguous remarks that are attributed to Jesus. The Muslim authorities of that day and place arrested, tried, and convicted him of claiming to be God. After his execution, all sorts of people said that they had seen him alive. Do you believe those stories? I doubt you do.

It was only last century that Hasidic Judaism had an amazingly wise teacher, Rebbe Schneerson. There are many stories of the miracles he performed. His followers believed he was the messiah, and they eagerly awaited him to act. When he died a natural death, many simply didn't believe it. Despite the efforts of Chabad headquarters to stifle this sort of conversation, even today there are Chabadniks who claim he didn't really die. There were also accounts by Chabadniks who claimed they had seen him, that he was risen from the dead. And finally, there are those who have accepted his death, but fully expect him to resurrect and fulfill the messianic promises. Do you see what enormous grief does? All this is perfectly normal.
 
just me said:
My Bible shows a small star next to verses in the Old Testament that referred to the Messiah and things about Him. What do you think, that unearthed scrolls and writings were not from the Word? Isaiah 53 was written about whom?
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Good point... people in Judaism often say that the Messiah being God is completely foreign to the Hebrew Bible... but they don't recognize this verse...

“In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely, and this is the name by which he will be called: ‘YHWH, Our Righteousness.’”
 
QuickTwist said:
@meowzician,

You still have not given me an answer why God would raise a heretic from the dead...
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Because I don't need to. You are asking an irrelevant question. It’s like asking whether a fire alarm has the correct political opinions while the building is burning. The claim being discussed is whether something happened, not whether you approve of the person involved or his theology.
QuickTwist said:
I can show beyond any reasonable doubt (not all POSSIBILITIES and that would be proof which doesn't exist for history) that Christ was raised from the dead, so the question remains why God would raise a heretic from the dead...
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Nah, it's okay. I've already been through all that. There is nothing you can say that I haven't already considered, wrestled with, cried over, and let go of.
 
just me said:
My Bible shows a small star next to verses in the Old Testament that referred to the Messiah and things about Him. What do you think, that unearthed scrolls and writings were not from the Word?
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Are you not aware that there were quite a few scrolls that are not in your Bible? Scrolls outlining the purity rituals of the Essenes and their beliefs. Books like Enoch and Tobit. Even alternative renditions of stories from the Torah. I think it goess without saying that a scroll is not the Word of God or about Jesus just because it was found at Qumran.
just me said:
Isaiah 53 was written about whom?
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Isaiah 53 is about the Children of Israel. The servant motif is carried all through the book of Isaiah, and there is more than one place that Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel, including this one:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,

Since Isaiah literally tells us explicitly that the servant is Israel, that pretty much settles the argument. It really doesn't matter if you think, "But that doesn't fit with this verse here or that statement there." Isaiah is the author. If he tells me this is what he meant, I accept it.
 
meowzician said:
Grief hallucinations don't need to account for these "group encounters." You are assuming these are historical accounts. I don't think they are. I think what OFTEN happens, especially when someone is deeply loved, is that news of these kinds of experiences get passed around orally. The half dozen people who do have grief hallucinations becomes 12, becomes 100, becomes an entire crowd.

There was once a Sufi Mystic named Al Hallaj. He was also an itinerant teacher like Jesus and had many, many disciples. There are accounts of him making the same sort of ambiguous remarks that are attributed to Jesus. The Muslim authorities of that day and place arrested, tried, and convicted him of claiming to be God. After his execution, all sorts of people said that they had seen him alive. Do you believe those stories? I doubt you do.

It was only last century that Hasidic Judaism had an amazingly wise teacher, Rebbe Schneerson. There are many stories of the miracles he performed. His followers believed he was the messiah, and they eagerly awaited him to act. When he died a natural death, many simply didn't believe it. Despite the efforts of Chabad headquarters to stifle this sort of conversation, even today there are Chabadniks who claim he didn't really die. There were also accounts by Chabadniks who claimed they had seen him, that he was risen from the dead. And finally, there are those who have accepted his death, but fully expect him to resurrect and fulfill the messianic promises. Do you see what enormous grief does? All this is perfectly normal.
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Here's a tiny bit on this...

"Thus it is recognized that the group appearances are multiply attested, which is highly significant in evidential terms. For some examples, the Jesus Seminar lists two independent sources for the appearance to the two individuals walking with Jesus on the way to Emmaus. Crossan lists four in-dependent texts that support at least one appearance to the group of Jesus’s eleven disciples (though the sources he mentions usually count as five texts), while the Jesus Seminar likewise lists four independent (but with slightly different) texts in favor of this group appearance to the eleven disciples.91 The supported appearances to individuals come chiefly from multiple in-dependent sources. Paul usually receives the bulk of the attention in the skeptical literature, as already noted above, since he is uniformly thought to be the strongest and best witness to a resurrection appearance of Jesus.92 Two sources for the resurrection appearance to Paul are mentioned regularly, twice by Paul himself (1 Cor 9:1; 15:8) along with the three Acts accounts (9:3–19; 22:1–16; 26:9–18). Crossan and Marcus Borg spend a fair amount of time on the appearance to Paul,93 with Crossan emphasizing particularly the more physical aspects pertaining to bodily resurrection when treating the nature of Paul’s claims.94 The Jesus Seminar also lists these two sources for Paul’s appearance.95 Appearance data for other individuals besides Paul are also firm."

In short, you can deny it if you want, but even some of the most theologically liberal scholars of the NT concede the group appearances.
 
meowzician said:
No, you haven't come even close.
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I mean, what would convince you?

I've given six facts, which you originally dispute, but I don't see you doing that atp???
I've disputed the group hallucination hypothesis quite handedly...
And now I have shown that even the most liberal NT scholars today affirm group appearances...

What will be the next thing?

You can just put your head in the sand and say, "I don't care about this," or do what the critical scholars do and say, "Data is good... I just can't believe it... I wasn't there."
 
QuickTwist said:
I mean, what would convince you?
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I've explained to you multiple times. Back when I was still a Christian, and did indeed believe in the resurrection, I looked into this FULLY. I gave it the "INFJ treatment" of turning it over and over. There ISN'T anything you can say to me that I haven't already wrestled with, cried over, and let go of. I already did the homework. I don't need to repeat the assignment. I'm attending a different class now.
 
meowzician said:
You seem to be making a lot of fallacious "appeals to authority." Please be aware that the only legitimate appeal to authority you can make is when authorities have a consensus.
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And it literally IS consensus that there were group appearances...

I gave some examples of LIBERAL SCHOLARS who will affirm group appearances... That is why I said it was only a bit... If you want to see what all the scholars say about Jesus, the resurrection, and His miracles, read Dr. Habermas' book "On the Resurrection Volume 3: Scholarly Perspectives" in which Dr. Habermas surveys MANY CRITICAL AND LIBERAL SCHOLARS and he organizes it by category. He only uses facts that are already consensus... He literally uses his enemies words to give such strong evidence that the resurrection happened, that it is a historical fact FMPOV.
 
meowzician said:
I've explained to you multiple times. Back when I was still a Christian, and did indeed believe in the resurrection, I looked into this FULLY. I gave it the "INFJ treatment" of turning it over and over. There ISN'T anything you can say to me that I haven't already wrestled with, cried over, and let go of. I already did the homework. I don't need to repeat the assignment. I'm attending a different class now.
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So... you riding with the Mass Grief Hallucination idea?
 
meowzician said:
This is a red herring. Let's assume there are miracles. It doesn't follow that there was a resurrection. This is not evidence. You are not thinking clearly.
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You're right... I just shows that miracles happen. It's not meant to be evidence for the resurrection. It's meant to show miracles happen...

And you mentioned NDEs... Have you considered that some are pretty much impossible to refute naturalistically?

Also, you didn't even watch the video...
 
QuickTwist said:
You're right... I just shows that miracles happen. It's not meant to be evidence for the resurrection. It's meant to show miracles happen...

And you mentioned NDEs... Have you considered that some are pretty much impossible to refute naturalistically?

Also, you didn't even watch the video...
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No, I don't go to links, read books, or watch videos unless it's a topic that I'm presently interested in, or a band that I really like. I'm not here to surf the web. I'm here to have conversations. I want to know what YOU think and why YOU think it. Not someone else. The only time a quote and link are of any worth to me is when they are actual evidence, which means a valid scientific study, or documenting the consensus of scholars.
 
QuickTwist said:
Which I already explained that it is a consensus view that there were...
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It absolutely is NOT the consensus view.

Time for me to get ready for bed. Tomorrow is another day, and another classroom for this substitute teacher! I don't want to be tired when I do my cat herding. :)
 
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