The Worst of an INTJ

Chamomile

Chamomile

Community Member
MBTI
INFJ
Enneagram
Four way tie
My dad has been typed as INTJ. Could be an error of course, but it does make sense to me in many areas (especially the attempting to organize and structure things so they make sense to him, even if it makes zero sense to anyone else). However, this person is mentally VERY unhealthy and completely detached from emotion (does not believe in love- he seriously said that out loud). He is obsessed with traditions, doing what is considered normal, and of what people think of him. He is also the most critical person I have ever known and treats people with disabilities as sub-human (as well as people that are overweight, he won't have anything to do with them). He has no problem saying that in front of those people. His paranoia is extreme and his negativity is like a cancer. Basically, the symptoms or indicators of Narcissism sound exactly like him. As for background info: I know he used to be an alcoholic, was raised in an alcoholic and abusive home, and he was a drill sergeant. He has a high paying job and has kept it for 25 years. They seem to like him <-- confusing.

Now, I have been digging and can't seem to find anything about INTJ's that are unhealthy in every area. I was hoping to find something like the Enneagram has, listing levels of unhealthiness and what that often looks like, etc. So far its just a 'stressed' INTJ or undeveloped or something, and hasn't covered all facets of their personality. I do not understand him. I do not understand who he is, and I WANT to, for my sake. I've worked through many, many issues that came from growing up with him with professionals. He was verbally abusive with lots of name-calling about my biggest insecurities and he hasn't changed. As an INFJ, you can imagine this was especially difficult with my sensitivity. I wouldn't have a relationship with him if he wasn't financially supporting me through college. I have no other options at this point (I have exhausted all others, please don't suggest alternatives- that's not what I'm asking).

Can anyone shed some light on how INTJ's can be at their worst when its in every area of their life? Also, any tips on coping, making him understand me, and making him shut the hell up about his judgments on my life? I'd also love to understand what tendencies INTJ's have when they feel like things are out of control. I know how to get through to most people, I do NOT know how to get through to him. Any help or insight is appreciated!

PS examples help a lot, I understand best that way. Thanks!


Note: Just to clarify some issues that have come up so we don't go in circles:
1. I know some wonderful INTJ's, including several members of my family that I adore. I don't think my dad is a crappy person just because he's an INTJ (or ISTJ, or whatever). Its just part of who he is and who he COULD have been. Its genuinely sad to me that he could have been a really great person, so INTJ's: its not personal and I don't need to be convinced of INTJ's contributions to society.
2. There have been several suggestions that he sounds like an ISTJ, which is what I had him pegged as anyway, so that is entirely possible as well.
3. If you think its kind of pointless to try to understand his type as a way to help me to survive him, I respect your opinion but I also see no harm in the effort, so please respect that too.
4. I would never waste my energy trying to change him. I'm not naive and after 6 years of therapy, the hopelessness of trying to change people has definitely been covered. I simply would love some tips as to how I can keep my life INFJ-friendly despite the tsunami of gonorrhea that is my father. Understanding him helps me do that, so that's all I'm attempting.
 
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Worst in what way? Gone horribly wrong, or gone through the wrong direction?

For the latter, INTJ's worst...would be a Mad Scientist. Of some sort, in contrast to INFJ's Knight Templar tendencies (sorry, tropespeak here but I hope it's understandable enough) Both has a flavor of doing what they had to do, but in all the worst ways possible. The intensity, determination, and creativity, but lacking the good human part that shaped them.

For the former, lessee. Jungian shadow?
 
making others feel like deranged, overly feeling, stupid wrecks.

logic x 1,000. thinking they are such fuckin realists when in reality they are huge pessimists.

impossible to argue with. logic always wins over emotions.

i might be projecting my own personal problems that i've had with some INTJs. but yeah.
 
aerosol said:
making others feel like deranged, overly feeling, stupid wrecks.

logic x 1,000. thinking they are such fuckin realists when in reality they are huge pessimists.

impossible to argue with. logic always wins over emotions.

i might be projecting my own personal problems that i've had with some INTJs. but yeah.
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This sounds exactly like him
 
he might be ISTJ, actually. they're quite similiar.


and sorry to hear that sounds exactly like him. it's a tough kind of person to deal with. super stubborn.
 
Peppermint said:
This is probably a STJ. Sounds like my dad a lot. :p

I think you might find this link useful. I have some other about stressful states but I won't barrage you with info yet. Check out the sections on Si and Te in this link, and see if they are anything like your father.

http://www.midlifecrisismarriageadvocate.com/typology--the-eight-function-attitudes.html
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I thought about ISTJ as well, but he tends to get ideas from his own head and convince himself they are fact. This is often paranoia and he's convinced someone is trying to make him look bad, etc. That felt more INTJ to me, but I am not as well versed in the slight differences as others here are, so I might be totally off.

Thanks for the link, I'll definitely start going over that.
 
Yeeeah, we Ni's usually go a bit wacky when we're under stress. I mean we can press for tradition, but we usually go the, "anything goes" route and have no boundaries.
 
Peppermint said:
yes. Ni users are not obsessed with being traditional and don't care much for normalcy. They tend to be the opposite, actually.
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It sounds like that might be the case then. I'm biased, so I really can't say either for sure. Neither of them sound entirely like him, and I think its simply because he is so screwed up. If he were ISTJ, same question above applied here?
 
I am dealing with the same issues and I haven't been able to find a solution that won't compromise me.

The solution would be, that you start adhering to his standards, depends if you are willing to do that. Short of that, separation is the only other way I can think of.
 
I doubt understanding the worst about INTJs will be of any assistance in the long run. All types have their foibles but I seriously doubt boiling down a complex parent/child relationship to differences in MBTI is really what is wrong. One thing to understand is that it is only your perspective that makes the claim that your father is very unhealthy. I mean, he is paying for your education, so he seems to have respect for the parent/child bond on some level. Differences between parent and child are particularily intense between the ages of 18 to about 25 when the child is attempting to establish their own household/sense of independence. You should recognize your own part in the drama with your parent if you are to come to grips with your feelings. One can lay the blame on someone else but that doesn't take into account your own actions and part in the relationship.

In general
INTJs can seem cold and emotionless because we do not operate from a Fe perspective. It is difficult for me to give and receive emotional support if I am feeling unbalanced. This means that I don't give warm fuzzies on any kind of a regular basis. If I am not doing well myself, even less so. Not a hugger and have no desire to be a hugger.

Depending on how strong the J function, an INTJ can seem very judgemental. I will point out issues and problems to those I love and this can make me seem overly harsh toward sensitive Feeling types. In my mind, I don't think there is anything wrong with pointing out failures or issues but Feelers tend to take this as an "attack" on them. To me, honest is honest and I say things without finger pointing. We all have failures. Tact was a difficult lesson for me to learn.

All types can become entrenched in negative patterns. I am not saying your father isn't everything you say he is but I will point out that understanding him won't change how you feel. I think it would be much better if you focused on your own reactions to his behavior rather than his behavior.
 
Sonyab said:
I doubt understanding the worst about INTJs will be of any assistance in the long run. All types have their foibles but I seriously doubt boiling down a complex parent/child relationship to differences in MBTI is really what is wrong. One thing to understand is that it is only your perspective that makes the claim that your father is very unhealthy. I mean, he is paying for your education, so he seems to have respect for the parent/child bond on some level. Differences between parent and child are particularily intense between the ages of 18 to about 25 when the child is attempting to establish their own household/sense of independence. You should recognize your own part in the drama with your parent if you are to come to grips with your feelings. One can lay the blame on someone else but that doesn't take into account your own actions and part in the relationship.

All types can become entrenched in negative patterns. I am not saying your father isn't everything you say he is but I will point out that understanding him won't change how you feel. I think it would be much better if you focused on your own reactions to his behavior rather than his behavior.
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I see where you are coming from, but I am definitely not alone in that view of him and while I am biased, I can remain objective when trying to understand a person. I say that I am biased because I happen to be his least favorite child for whatever reason, and he treats me very differently. The abuse began at age four, as I was the only child not allowed to call him 'daddy.' He was also abusive to my siblings and mother, but in a different way. After he met with counselors from our church, they granted my mother church approval for a divorce based off of emotional abandonment. My parent's former marriage therapist also claims he is very unhealthy, as does his own family (my aunts/uncles). As for the tuition thing: He spent my college tuition on another sibling and refused to pay for my education until my mother threatened legal action. He does not pay for tuition now, I am $30,000 in debt for that reason. He gives me a few hundred dollars a month that I can't lose. He did pay for both of my siblings' tuition and living expenses, and it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. They are both INTJ and simply more like him. I am not whining or trying to get pity, I've dealt with all that. I just want it to be clear where the reality of his mental sickness comes from (professionals, clergy, family, and me).

I will never have positive feelings for him, I am not trying to change that. I am trying to understand how a person works with all that I have: a type. If understanding any of that makes me any less crushed when he explains what a poor investment I am for his money (monthly conversation), I will take it. At least of the two of us, I am trying. I also don't need long run assistance. I have a year and a half left in college, after which I will not be dealing with him again. I need short term survival advice.
 
Chamomile said:
He has no problem saying that in front of those people.
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This makes me guess ESTJ. As an ISTJ I would have a hard time telling these people they are shitty.
 
I too don't see how knowing his type will help you. Your father, based on your description, sounds like an angry, frustrated and abusive person. I don't know what stresses brought this out in him and I don't think it's something you can change. That is really his prerogative. I also don't think you'll be assisted by trying to understand him. Getting through to him is only possible if he's interested in communication. What you describe appears more to be about him imposing his will on you.

You would be better served to focus on how to cope or escape the situation. How to cope. Develop firm boundaries in your mind about where you the individual begins and where the world, including him ends. Defend your boundaries preferably without aggression because you do not wish to escalate a situation. Do not try to lean emotionally on anyone who is unable to provide you that support willingly and lovingly. Work on your own strengths. Forgive if you can and look towards your future always being careful that you are not robbed of your will to succeed. I would recommend this book for starters: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-Recognize-Respond/dp/1558505822"]The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize It and How to Respond [/ame]. Unfortunately, the book is written from the point of view of women in an abusive relationship. It does not focus on the parent-child relationship or the case where the abused is male and the abuser female. However, a simple application of common sense will still allow the book to be of value. I do not agree with all her techniques but it's a place to start developing your own strategy.
 
Don't get me wrong, I have sympathy for your situation. People who are negative and abusive, regardless of type are difficult to deal with and the damage they can do is vey real. Short term advice: Don't allow him to turn you into him. Live your life with love and joy and you are already leaps and bounds ahead of him as a human being. You should be proud of your accomplishments.
 
kiu said:
I too don't see how knowing his type will help you. Your father, based on your description, sounds like an angry, frustrated and abusive person. I don't know what stresses brought this out in him and I don't think it's something you can change. That is really his prerogative. I also don't think you'll be assisted by trying to understand him. Getting through to him is only possible if he's interested in communication. What you describe appears more to me about him imposing his will on you.

I would recommend this book for starters: The Verbally Abusive Relationship: How to Recognize It and How to Respond .
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I appreciate the book recommendation, I actually own it! It helped a lot in my teens when I didn't understand what emotional abuse really was.

Again, I have no interest in changing him. I know he will (probably) never change and that's fine, I accepted that long ago. I simply want to figure out anyway I can make the situation I'm in a little more peaceful, since I am stuck with him for another year and a half. It's simply who I am that when I get how someone works, I am more tolerant and I am less affected by the negative things. He is who he is, I'm just trying to contain the virus. I may or may not find that anything helps me deal with him, but I am definitely willing to look :) Thanks for the tips!
 
It seems to me as if you are looking to MBTI to understand antisocial personality disorder. You are speaking of a man who doesn't have a 'type' problem, but sounds like he has a few mental/emotional disorders, including being a sociopath. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html Who you just described sounds exactly like my step-father.
 
Heres my take on people like this.

One word. Control.

They don't care how people feel. It doesn't matter. They'll say/do whatever they want to to grant themselves CONTROL. They want control over your emotions. The logic is flawed and twisted. If you need cooperation from them, it's tough. These people are insecure, ultra insecure, no offense to your dad btw, I feel really sorry for this, it's sad they have to lash out at others to feel better about themselves. It's pathetic. So it's not that he really thinks this stuff about you, he's using language as a tool to control you. Whether it's true or false, or a combination of the two, it does not matter what he says or how he says it. Bottom line is he wants to control the surroundings of his environment and he could care less about people's feelings besides his own.

They lack resourcefulness, and instead of "fixing" themselves, they pawn off their suffering to people. The truth of the matter, is he doesn't want to understand you. The door to his natural feelings and understanding is closed. He doesn't look at it from a "normal" perspective he looks at it, "how can I control this and make myself feel better because this sucks" perspective. It does not matter how he gets there, as long as he gets there. Period.

Just one persons take on it..

Also, I think this is a narcissistic thing, not an intj thing.
 
This was the only thing that just SCREAMED ISTJ at me. But I'll take your word for it that he's an INTJ. The rest of the stuff you said could go either way, I suppose.

Chamomile said:
He is obsessed with traditions, doing what is considered normal
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I think I'll rewrite an old fable as an analogy to some the INTJ "Relating to others is stupid!" feelings I've seen at times in my bretherin:
Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength. As he went away, the fox remarked, 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.'

Driven by an urge to relate, an INTJ tried to exercise his Fe with some more socially affluent folks but was unable to, although he attempted the task with all of his cognitive ability. As he went away, the INTJ remarked, 'Oh, your petty smalltalk is worthless anyway! I don't need any meaningless chit-chatter.'

There's nothing you can do to change him, that's something he needs to do on his own - and from the sound of it, it doesn't seem like he's going to be willing to do that right now... or maybe ever! I might say what NOT to do though.

I know that, for me, one of the most infuriating things in the world is fakeness. My dad, an ESFJ, drives me up the wall because everything that comes out of his mouth is fake - a poor attempt at tricking me into liking him. So if I mention something around him, he'll instantly agree with me and tell me that he likes that thing - and vice versa for when I have a tone of dislike in my voice.

So, from that, I might say that trying to have a pleasant conversation with him, or to get along with him, is looking at it in the wrong way and can actually be hindering your relationship with him more than if he was just being a curmudgeon alone.

I've noticed from myself that when I get upset I can get overly judgmental of the world and other people and such. It doesn't so much have to do with what's around me, but has to do with my frustration with what is around me - it's impersonally rooted.

So concerning him remarking about your insecurities... what can I say! We pride ourselves on efficiency. It's much more efficient to get one ruthless stab in than a bunch of more rational pinpricks. It's probably not that he dislikes those insecurities, it's that they hurt you - and he wants to fight back against the world that he feels is so wrong so that he has some power over it... and you just happen to be a part of that world right now.

I don't think there's anything that you could do to change the relationship - he would have to make an effort as much as you would and he doesn't sound like he's willing to. You might try just accepting the relationship as it is without needing to change it - so that when he starts getting angry you just calmly stand up and leave the conversation, not demand that he change. That might be hard though, 'cause you feelers need your silly resolution of conflict. ;)

Hope that helped!

:m090:
 
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