[INTP] Too soft for T; too hard for F?

RUDE!
 
Lurk said:
Yes, I started one of those threads.
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As INFJs mature we start to learn how to not let our Fe turn us into Yes-Men. Though, the way we turn our reasonings Ti and imaginations Ni into creations Se is always driven by the desire to make other's truely at harmony.

The mature Fe understands that true harmony is not always found in giving others what they say they want, but using our Ni and Ti to see what they truely need.

(1) Do you play Ni
 
Lurk said:
Animals have excellent spatial skills -- dunno about reasoning -- anyway, whatever.
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Sorry, that was an inside joke (or so I thought) that utterly bombed. :disappointed:

Of course spatial reasoning is important. Mine is pretty good. I envy most SPs for their ease with it.

You could use your intelligence to master games. Anything you enjoy and value. It doesn't need to be practical!
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Ahh, well in that case I suppose I'm a success after all! :sweatsmile:

I don't feel comfortable with any computer whiz, no matter how brilliant, amazing enough wealth to influence political elections. Why? Because -- and this will be an extremely unpopular opinion -- they don't have the liberal education any cognitively able person should have, so their knowledge is as limited in breadth as ana autistic child's. Being intelligent or even brilliant in a niche field only means "fuck school" because the kid can go earn money. Money trumps "useless" humanity classes. So the kid is like a Border Collie, very intelligent, very good at herding, their style; otherwise, forget it. They live to work.

I've known plenty of intelligent retards who work in STEM fields.
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True enough. I was thinking more people with brilliant ideas that actually change the world and make people's lives easier, but then in this day and age that is a pretty complicated dynamic, generally tied into some exorbitant profit motive.

Lurk said:
Finally, you admit it.

I actually know I'm an INTP. I've been around them on various forums for over a decade. I disliked most of them. INTPs who camp out at INTP forums 24/7 probably aren't psychologically healthy.

I find most of them cold as tundra, obsessed with themselves, and extremely arrogant and condescending. Some of them are very cruel, just for the fun of it. Others are effete cowards who wouldn't protect their mother if she was attacked.

Oh, and they love gossip. Mean spirited gossip.

....and so I was disgusted and I thought "These are not my people!"

But to be fair, I've also met lovely, gentle, and considerate INTPs. The damn letter "T" became synonomous withs POS to me. I'm not an F, but I wanted that capital "T" gone because I was so disgusted I didn't want to even bear the INTP label anymore.
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I agree with your assessment but I ain't losing my capital T.

One thing - your disgust at association with these online goons sounds suspiciously like Fi to me. :tonguewink:
 
Lurk said:
But you have to. Otherwise, they win by default. Remind yourself that people aren't as tough as they seem, and chances are, you are a good deal brighter than most of them anyway.
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In practice I don’t back away from arguing with Ts ^^ It's often them who dislike arguing with me.

I think tertiary Ti overuse in combo with Ni can give one a certain peculiar "style" which isn't to the taste of everyone. If an argument is going to turn into a debate over who's right, and I don't enjoy being brought into it but at the same time I don't agree that my interlocutor should be right if I think they're wrong, I like things to be quick and short. Otherwise I start feeling the tension and it stresses me out. So I would listen for a while, soak things in, synthesize internally and then aim for a surgical hit. Then I would just say "that's what I think anyway" and try to shift the conversation to more agreeable territory.

Lurk said:
I find most of them cold as tundra, obsessed with themselves, and extremely arrogant and condescending. Some of them are very cruel, just for the fun of it. Others are effete cowards who wouldn't protect their mother if she was attacked.
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I’ve noticed that too on occasion but indeed it seems to be only the case of the “internet INTPs". The INTPs I know in real life aren’t like that at all.

Littlelissa said:
'Too soft for T too hard for F',
This reminds me of meringue, which is hard on the outside but soft in the middle, a bit like the INFJ...
or maybe that's soft on the outside, and hard in the middle?
Hum, *scratches head*
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Good to see you posting :)

I do think the “soft hard” dynamic is quite prevalent for a number of INFJs. Again, most of the INFJs I know in real life conceal a sensitive soul under a – not so much hard, but pretty decisive and ‘rational’ personality.
 
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Lurk said:
And btw....I've learned nothing! Are you guys reluctant or something? You don't need to be.
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Very reluctant.

Truth is, I'm just as much an emotional as a rational person. I feel deeply and intensely. I'm sensitive to physical and emotional stimuli, as well as atmosphere. The right (wrong?) music will move me to tears, the right (wrong?) words can send me to high heaven or into deep despair.
Reading something like this gives me physical symptoms. It took me a week to recover from vacation in Brazil; seeing the poverty, especially the contrast with the hotel we were staying in just a few city blocks over, it made me feel so guilty and sick. Injustice and suffering can make me tremble with rage, disgust and sadness.
Is it any wonder I came here thinking I was a feeler?
At the same time I have your typical NT dark humor, sarcasm, obsession with competence, and need for coherence and consistency and truth. And yet I'm very careful about disclosing my thoughts, cause I don't want to cause disharmony. 75% of what I think, I don't actually post here, cause I don't want to hurt anyone.

So yes, very much too soft for T, too hard for F.
 
infinite dreams said:
As some philosopher whom Ren could easily name (but I never bothered to learn) probably once said, "I know what I do not know," or something.
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ID You just misquoted Socrates, and he's not happy...

socradreams.png


;)
 
This is as good a place as any to put into action some of my characteristic warnings about the T-F dichotomy vs the thinking/feeling function concept, which are pretty different.

The dichotomy does correlate with the so-called "toughminded/tenderhearted" personality marker. The function theoretic version doesn't seem to have much to do with that. If anything, value judgments can be tougher or not tough, and thinking judgment is pretty neutral in regards to valence.
I'd consider myself a stronger "T-type" in functions theory than the dichotomies. Ie toughmindedness isn't high on the list and so on (although I'd also say I'm most strongly intuitive more than thinking.)

The dichotomies being well-correlated to Big 5 dimensions suggests the same philosophy operational there (ie that dimensions tend to be continuous with a lot of people in between the extremes) would indicate a large middle-ish population here.

As for intelligence, I suspect that's pretty independent (by the way, I have no qualms simply saying it if some personality types are less intelligent or even downright unintelligent and am 0% interested in political correctness, as I try to treat people well independent of such things). I think some personality dimensions are related to being intellectUAL, as opposed to intelligent. But that's more the N/S and/or Big 5 Openness dimension. There's an aspect of T/F (the dichotomy) that has to do with logic and objectivity, but actually it has very little to do with the interest in and curiosity for logical knowledge. It has more to do with a toughminded valuation of competence.
I'd at least guess the most commonly intellectual (not intelligent) personality type dichotomies-wise is still probably the NT combo, but it's a lot less indicative, and lots of dichotomies NF will be the same.

I don't think it's abnormal for someone to consistently test T and actually be a pretty pronounced feeling type after reading Jung.


Also, intuition in a Jungian sense is no longer (unlike N) related to being intellectual. If anything, that was the thinking types in his framework.
 
Ren said:
Good to see you posting :)
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Thank you. You are a kind soul.

Ren said:
I think tertiary Ti overuse in combo with Ni can give one a certain peculiar "style" which isn't to the taste of everyone. If an argument is going to turn into a debate over who's right, and I don't enjoy being brought into it but at the same time I don't agree that my interlocutor should be right if I think they're wrong, I like things to be quick and short. Otherwise I start feeling the tension and it stresses me out.
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Ha, I suffer with this, but I hate conflict so it's quite a dilemma. I do recognise that it can feel uncomfortable if the need to speak up like you say is squashed, either by myself or others. I guess the trick is finding the right way, without making a meal of it, like you have indicated. I think Fe sometimes gets in the way for me because it becomes too important for me that I am understood. If this isn't taken seriously it can then come out in the wrong way, if things are allowed to build up.
However in a recent situation in my daily life involving a group of people I considered the possibility of being misunderstood and letting it go. I mean not everyone is going to necessarily 'get' where were coming from. So the question then is can I still be friendly and open i.e. not defensive and in a sense just let go of the need to be right or understood even.. Even though being misunderstood can be painful and/ or make me feel quite angry,- like someone wise on here once said when others disapprove of us, we maintain the right to disapprove of them (e.g. not judge ourselves in being judged). I am thinking about that and also how liberating it is to validate yourself - and for that to be good enough. I guess what I'm talking about here is managing Fe.
Anyway I rambled there and only half formulated my thoughts, and went way off tangent.. but I enjoyed your post and agreed with points you raised and it made me think about how it can play out in me. I think Fe and Ti and how they interrelate is an interesting topic and probably does cause some difficulties, although I'm not exactly clear yet how and why. Probably sensitivity and overthinking.

Ren said:
I do think the “soft hard” dynamic is quite prevalent for a number of INFJs. Again, most of the INFJs I know in real life conceal a sensitive soul under a – not so much hard, but pretty decisive and ‘rational’ personality.
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Yes peculiar combo it must seem when looking in from outside!
 
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