What Does It Take For God To Save A Sinner?

sprinkles said:
Yeah. This actually wouldn't be the first time I've tried to make this point. I've done this a lot over the years. That's actually one of the reasons I tend to lose myself and get irritated because the same things come up again.

Some times I just have to wonder why I bother. Repeating the same cycle over and over.
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Honestly I'm struggling with that right now.
 
[MENTION=1848]Barnabas[/MENTION] [MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]
Sending prayers for Peace and Joy your way. :)
 
I have just a few random thoughts.

To all of us who “strain out gnats and swallows camels” and “attempt to remove the speck from another’s eye while sporting a log in our own”… let us embrace the unraveling that allows us to come face to face with our shadow and have a truer encounter with Grace.

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] I understand that you may not include yourself in the “us” I’ve mentioned above and I understand that you have strong convictions. I will give you room to have them, and allow evolution to proceed at it’s own pace, both within you and without. But for the sake of that which is Good, I do hope that you come to a deeper understanding of Love.
 
Barnabas said:
That's interesting I've never heard a stance that assumes people have free will but God destroys it to bring them salvation. Brings up a whole bunch of questions.
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It's not that complicated.

We are sinners, by nature. So whatever we choose by our own free will is WRONG.

Only by BREAKING our wills, and giving us a NEW will, will God bring us to himself through his Son.

Once again, you are LOST if you have not yet recognized that your own will is, by nature, at enmity with God.

God will have to reveal that to you if he is ever going to save you.

That's what repentance is--turning from wrong thoughts about yourself, to the truth.

You are nothing but sin, and you must have a Savior to provide what you're incapable of producing yourself.

Faith is the gift of God, not something you naturally possess.

God must give you faith or you will never possess it.
 
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SovereignGrace said:
It's not that complicated.

We are sinners, by nature. So whatever we choose by our own free will is WRONG.

Only by BREAKING our wills, and giving us a NEW will, will God bring us to himself through his Son.
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Never said it was complicated, in fact it's super simple that's part of the problem it sounds to me to be an oversimplification of nature of man and God's relationship with his creation. It bring up questions that on it's own can't answer like why God would shape us with free will and then take it away? He gave us free will and called it good in Gen 1, but decided by Matt 1 it wasn't all it cracked up to be.
 
Barnabas said:
Never said it was complicated, in fact it's super simple that's part of the problem it sounds to me to be an oversimplification of nature of man and God's relationship with his creation. It bring up questions that on it's own can't answer like why God would shape us with free will and then take it away? He gave us free will and called it good in Gen 1, but decided by Matt 1 it wasn't all it cracked up to be.
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Barnabas, stop trying to figure things out and just read what the Scriptures say.

Man's will is CORRUPT. Don't you understand that yet?

Do you know anything about the Scriptures at all?

I'm begging you, read the Scriptures. The answers are all there.

And you've GOT to get under some real Gospel preaching.

Can I PLEASE point you to some resources? You are woefully ignorant of the Gospel.

I promise you I want to help. But you've got to ask for it.

Please let me help you. It kills me how LOST you really are.

Let me help.

PLEASE LISTEN to the SERMON LINK in the OP.
 
[MENTION=1848]Barnabas[/MENTION] He didn't take our free will away, or are you just questioning SovereignGrace's view?
 
SovereignGrace said:
Man's will is CORRUPT. Don't you understand that yet?
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Surprisingly, this is (sort of) what I believe too!

Man's will is corrupt and sinful. We're all equally sinful. In fact, every thought and action that we choose to do is sinful. That means that there is no way for us to remove the sin from our bodies through merit or belief. God loves all of us, or else he wouldn't have sent his bambino to save us all. When I said sort of, I don't believe in the magical God-will that believers in Sovey's religion think that they have.

SovereignGrace said:
Do you know anything about the Scriptures at all?

I'm begging you, read the Scriptures. The answers are all there.

And you've GOT to get under some real Gospel preaching.

Can I PLEASE point you to some resources? You are woefully ignorant of the Gospel.

I promise you I want to help. But you've got to ask for it.

Please let me help you. It kills me how LOST you really are.

Let me help.
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I think he sees himself as a messenger from God. Don't join his death cult, anyone! I'm serious!
 
vandyke said:
Surprisingly, this is (sort of) what I believe too!

Man's will is corrupt and sinful. We're all equally sinful. In fact, every thought and action that we choose to do is sinful. That means that there is no way for us to remove the sin from our bodies through merit or belief. God loves all of us, or else he wouldn't have sent his bambino to save us all. When I said sort of, I don't believe in the magical God-will that believers in Sovey's religion think that they have.
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If Christ died for all, then why do some end up saved and not others?

Are some people LESS CORRUPT than OTHERS?

Are some people just more SPIRITUAL than others?

If Christ died for all and yet only some are saved, then it must be that some are just BETTER than others.

But Christ did NOT die for ALL.

No one is RIGHTEOUS, NONE seek after GOD. You would know that if you read your Bible.

Romans 3:10-26 :

As it is written:


“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.

They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”

“Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;

“Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”

“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

Destruction and misery are in their ways;

And the way of peace they have not known.”

“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,

because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
 
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SovereignGrace said:
Barnabas, stop trying to figure things out and just read what the Scriptures say.

Man's will is CORRUPT. Don't you understand that yet?

Do you know anything about the Scriptures at all?

I'm begging you, read the Scriptures. The answers are all there.

And you've GOT to get under some real Gospel preaching.

Can I PLEASE point you to some resources? You are woefully ignorant of the Gospel.

I promise you I want to help. But you've got to ask for it.

Please let me help you. It kills me how LOST you really are.

Let me help.
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Honestly you can't help, remember God will save me or not at his own pleasure. Either you are right and if God loves me he will destroy my will and save me, or I am right and God has already saved me.

Though I find it odd that you would say that I should stop thinking and simply follow the letter of the Gospels since the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees is that they would only follow the letter of the law and not it's spirit.

that's my problem SG, I've read lots of scripture, I've been trained in biblical exegesis, I had my fair share of greek and hebrew classes, to be honest I've been doing this for a while and everything I've read and studied tells me that your wrong, that every verse you've quoted has been out of context and lacking.

But like I said if your right it doesn't matter.



Edit: I think I pointed out a a while back that that passage in Romans three is a amalgam of quotes from the Old Testament none of which in their proper context point to total depravity because the opening line is referencing Israels enemies saying that none among them are righteous.
 
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Barnabas said:
Honestly you can't help, remember God will save me or not at his own pleasure. Either you are right and if God loves me he will destroy my will and save me, or I am right and God has already saved me.

Though I find it odd that you would say that I should stop thinking and simply follow the letter of the Gospels since the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees is that they would only follow the letter of the law and not.

that's my problem SG, I've read lots of scripture, I've been trained in biblical exegesis, I had my fair share of greek and hebrew classes, to be honest I've been doing this for a while and everything I've read and studied tell me that your wrong, that every verse you've quoted has been out of context and lacking.

But like I said if your right it doesn't matter.


Edit: I think I pointed out a a while back that that passage in Romans three is a amalgam of quotes from the Old Testament none of which in their proper context point to total depravity because the opening line is referencing Israels enemies saying that none among them are righteous.
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There are many false preachers out there who at least have a good handle on basic doctrine.

But honestly, you don't know Bible 101.

I'm not just saying that to offend you. I'm dead serious. I can't believe you've had ANY training at ALL.

You know NOTHING.

It's as though you have never picked up a Bible in your life.

Every time you post, there so many errors I don't even know where to start. And I don't know if you would listen to correction, anyway.

I promise you, I want to help you. But if you think you don't need help, then I'm telling you, right now, you are LOST.

I'm simply stunned at your lack of knowledge. You'd have been better off without the training that you claim to have received.

I've never seen such a sad case in my life.

Truly sad.

Well, if you change your mind, let me know. I am eager to help you, Barnabas.

I hope at some point, you'll at least listen to the sermon link.
 
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SovereignGrace said:
stop trying to figure things out and just read what the Scriptures say.
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Without trying to seem like I'm causing an argument, I have to say that this idea bothers me and seems contradictory to the way God created us. We're created in a way that we have the cognition and ability to think, contemplate, and reflect - unlike (to our knowledge) any other create on this Earth. Why would God give us these wonderful abilities if we are just to follow the Scripture and do as we're told?
 
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SovereignGrace said:
There are many false preachers out there who at least have a good handle on basic doctrine.

But honestly, you don't know Bible 101.

I'm not just saying that to offend you. I'm dead serious. I can't believe you've had ANY training at ALL.

You know NOTHING.

It's as though you have never picked up a Bible in your life.

Every time you post, there so many errors I don't even know where to start. And I don't know if you would listen to correction, anyway.

I promise you, I want to help you. But if you think you don't need help, then I'm telling you, right now, you are LOST.

I'm simply stunned at your lack of knowledge. You'd have been better off without the training that you claim to have received.

I've never seen such a sad case in my life.

Truly sad.

Well, if you change your mind, let me know. I am eager to help you, Barnabas.

I hope at some point, you'll at least listen to the sermon link.
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You are so smart and better than us!
 
SovereignGrace said:
There are many false preachers out there who at least have a good handle on basic doctrine.

But honestly, you don't know Bible 101.

I'm not just saying that to offend you. I'm dead serious. I can't believe you've had ANY training at ALL.

You know NOTHING.

It's as though you have never picked up a Bible in your life.

Every time you post, there so many errors I don't even know where to start. And I don't know if you would listen to correction, anyway.

I promise you, I want to help you. But if you think you don't need help, then I'm telling you, right now, you are LOST.

I'm simply stunned at your lack of knowledge. You'd have been better off without the training that you claim to have received.

I've never seen such a sad case in my life.

Truly sad.

Well, if you change your mind, let me know. I am eager to help you, Barnabas.

I hope at some point, you'll at least listen to the sermon link.
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SG even if you have perfectly memorised every single verse of Scripture, I cannot believe you have understood, or internalised any of it, to make such a haughty post. I think you need to read what you wrote, and then go and reflect if there is anything in the entire New Testament that resembles what has come out of you. You should be ashamed.
 
say what said:
you love making something simple, unnecessarily complicated... don't you?
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ugh...now I'm really confused. I thought you are a woman, and I tried to make it complicated, so as you can understand it.

You want to go simple? Here we go simple: explain the word "hate" please.
 
LucyJr said:
ugh...now I'm really confused. I thought you are a woman, and I tried to make it complicated, so as you can understand it.
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could you explain more...what do you mean by this?

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don't bring oprah into this nobody wants to be an oprah
 
The man so filled with false humility from his devotion to his Lord is not a faithful man.

That is a man who, when bespoken to by his Lord that he was been measured and found wanting, would begin to list, describe, enumerate, and by any means and measure justify his faithfulness.

The only justifiable response would be, 'Thy will be done.'

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]

Your behavior is deplorable and not justifiable by any means or measure. You do only harm and bring shame to the Christian community.

[MENTION=1848]Barnabas[/MENTION]

You impress me every time you post. If I could point to anybody here as being a good example of Christian values and wisdom, it'd definitely be you.

[MENTION=10252]say what[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

LucyJr is correct in the broader sense that we are all intolerant to some degree. Bigot is just a label used to denigrate the views of others. It has no quantifiable application.

But [MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] I do have to agree with everyone else that [MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] 's behavior is beyond the pale of what would be considered reasonable.
 
Matt3737 said:
[MENTION=10252]say what[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

LucyJr is correct in the broader sense that we are all intolerant to some degree. Bigot is just a label used to denigrate the views of others. It has no quantifiable application.
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I know I'm harping on it, but I personally feel like there's major differences between being intolerant, disagreeing with someone, and being a bigot. They're all very different.

Disagreeing with a bigot's point of view is not, to me, hypocritical. I understand that in the broader idea of things, there may be some philosophical paradox of intolerance...but in regards to this situation, where [MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION] and I are being called bigots because we don't support or condone hateful speech is - to me - unfair. We're a bigot if we do condone it, and a bigot if we don't? How does one get to choose not to be a bigot?
 
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