Why don't women make the first move?

[Umbriel]

But she is still weak, because her constitution is weak. She is strong for her constitution, and stronger even then other men, but its in report with the constitution of the female body.
Take a picture of a man who has muscle, and you can see the truth.

This is about the nature (consituition) of the female and the male body. Its like you would take a lion and a wolf. Naturaly, the lion will always have a kind of natural advantage, because that's how a lion is.
This is what I'm trying to say...naturaly, the physical consitution of the man is stronger. And this is not just with regard to the physical aspect, but also to the mental aspect.

I see how what you're saying here about the lion and the wolf is true to a degree. There is an obvious natural advantage. The average lion will have the advantage over the average wolf, but what about those that are not average? You said yourself that the woman depicted is stronger than some men. Why do you say she is still weak, simply because she is not a man? If a wolf were stronger than most lions, it would still be weak because it is a wolf? That's a very black and white way of thinking and I can't make sense of it. There is a great variety in human anatomy. True, most males will be bigger and stronger than most women, but to say that a man is strong just because he is a man just isn't logical. As far as mentally being weak, remember that sex is only a physical characteristic. What you can know with absolute certainty about all males is that they have male reproductive parts, that is what distinguish them as being men. That is absolutely all being male truly means, and vice-versa for females. Everything else is an incorrect assumption. You can't even say that he will have a lot of body hair, that he will be tall, etc. with certainty, because those things are not true of all males. They are more common to one sex over the other, but not part of the criteria to fit into the category of a certain sex. There is also no single personality trait that is found in all people of one sex. You can't "understand women" or "understand men" because not everyone who makes up these groups is the same. Only if you have an understanding of all people (which really nobody can) can you truly say you "understand women," and then there isn't much point because you would have to understand men as well, so why even bother to make the distinction? And everything that I've said about what being male or female really means shows how useless the emphasis we place on a person's sex really is.

So to go back to the original question of this thread topic, I would like to point out that women typically don't make the first move in most cultures, but in some there is equal likelihood of either sex making the first move. I live in the United States and honestly I think there is about a 40 (women) / 60 (men) ratio of who "makes the first move." I can't tell you why women don't make the first move. I can tell you why people don't make the first move... They aren't confident in themselves, aren't confident in their feelings toward the other person, they fear rejection, they're waiting for "the right moment", they don't know "if they should" because they aren't sure how the other person will react, or what the consequences will be... Your hang-ups/fear/hesitation is greater than your desire for the person. There is a much greater risk and being the one to make the move, as opposed to the one who the move is made on. And in some situations it just makes more sense for one person as opposed to the other to make the first move. I will say that I have personally made the first move many times. I felt the other person would be comfortable with it, that he wanted to make the move, but was just too nervous or whatever. I can definitely remember being frustrated like "Damn it, why hasn't he kissed me yet?" and then I thought "Well, maybe he's thinking the same thing. I should just do it." You feel nervous right before, and in the first few seconds, then everything falls into place and you're so glad you finally worked up the courage to kiss (or ask for their number, hold hands, whatever is your idea of the first move.) If you want things to happen then make them happen.

 

[muir]

57 is the year of my birth

Thanks of addressing my points.

I hope we can continue to discuss things with each other in a civil and courteous way

Concerning your points...i explained previously in this thread that it grew out of the 'is feminism outdated' thread and particularly the warren farrel talk i posted which mentioned this aspect of the male/female dynamic where the social expectation was on men to make the first move

I really recommend the talk to people...the guy genuinly seems to want to see both genders thrive together; he was actually a leading light in the feminist movement in the 1970's until he had a revelation that there was a crisis brewing among young men

The other clip that i found interesting in that thread was the one posted by [MENTION=10759]BrokenDaniel[/MENTION] which featured Camille Paglia a gay female intellectual who i thought offered some very interesting perspectives on female behaviour

 

[muir]

I get what you mean. There were other images I've found of other female bodybuilders who were much more larger and more muscular than this, but I thought those images may have been a little too explicit for this thread.

Yes, generally men are larger than women, and yes, generally women do prefer to be in a relationship with men who are more stronger physically. But women don't only chase "weak" guys. I don't have fantasies of how "strong" I am, either. I consider myself to be quite feminine.. I like to be chased (But it is a turn off when a guy is too aggressive and forward initially), but I also like to chase as well. I'm sure many other ladies can relate to that. Just because a woman initiates contact doesn't mean that she'll have to be dominant in every aspect throughout the entire relationship.

It's worth noting though that the women who pump their bodies up that big use male hormone supplements to achieve that bulk (ie they are turning themselves into men)

For example people sometimes joke about a person being built like an 'female east german shot putter' because there was a scandal years ago where the female east german olympic athletes were using steroids and other male hormone supplements to turn themselves into men! (this was all done because of the whole political rivalry between capitalism v's communism)

Their body shapes changed with the hormones

What i'm advocating in this thread is that men and women should have equal say in our society but i am also advocating that we do not lose sight of REALITY which i think feminism has done

Men are stronger than women...there really is no reasonable debate on that issue

Men outperform women in every physical pursuit; and concerning the women that are achieveing high...well it's worth drug testing them!

 

[muir]

Yes. Having confidence to make a move has nothing to do with wanting to dominate the person. God forbid a woman who knows what she wants! What is the world coming to!

I agree with this

A woman can initiate and still remain a woman (without having to try to be domineering)

This idea that in the past cave men hit a woman over the head and then dragged them off to their cave is propaganda against our ancestors who it turns out were incredibly sophisticated and artistic geniuses (at least upto 40,000 years ago)

My bet is that for most of human existence it was just as common for a woman to come and take a man by the hand as visa versa

 

[muir]

I have to point out here the fallacy created when people claim that equality means being exactly the same. That 'argument' is used as a red herring by people who want to discredit equality but know that that position is not defensible.

I want to clear this issue up once and for all

The people who are saying that 'equality' means that men and women are EXACTLY the same are the MARXIST FEMINISTS

Ok?

Not me!

I am the person saying that i believe men and women should have EQUAL say in the decision making of our society but at the same time we as a species should realsie that we are different and that evolution assigned us different roles and equiped us phyiscally to carry out those roles

Men are stronger and have a more focussed field of vision because they have evolved to hunt prey (if you look at indigenous people in africa you will find that they are running down prey over large distances)

Women are anatomically desinged differently with wider hips for child rearing which are not as good for physical pursuits but which nontheless are VITAL for the survival of the species

Mens more athletic build has been vital for the species and womens child rearing build has been vital for the species...BOTH have had a vital role

Women actually have a wider field of vision than men! They can seea wider angle than us.....they can literally watch their man in the corner of their eye! this is probbaly because women were gathering rather than hunting and they were scanning the environment. once again if you look at indigenous people for example the aborigines of australia you will find this to be true. The women folk there teach the children songs about all the plants. The songs are a memory aid which helps the children identify a plant and also know what its properties are

Another use for womens wider field of vision is possibly because as they gathered and as they prepared the fruits of their labour they would have been TALKING...chatting away and singing and being sociable with the women and children around them

Men on the other hand would probaly have had to be more reticent because you cannot hunt animals and talk and sing at the same time!

men and women ARE different it's a scientific fact but this is not something to lament and indeed i don't believe people have been lamenting it until feminism messed with peoples heads!

Men and women have been complimenting each other for thousands of years and have even celebrated each others roles through feasts where the combined labours of the men and women come together to create something that the community shares and appreciates

It is marxist feminism that has told people that men and women are EXACTLY the same and that any differences are purely cultural ones thta exist in the mind and can be undone through social conditioning

I'll give you an example of the marxist mindset: recently Facebook and Apple have offered their female employees to freeze their eggs so that women can work later in life before having children. This is an unnatural act and a denial of womens assigned role by nature and it will have consequences for our species for example an older parent lacks the energy to give a child and children have a lot of energy!

So i think whilst campaigning for women to have equal say and for them to be treated with equal respect and to have equal opportunities is a noble thing i think we should also realsie that there are some differences betwene the sexes and that we shouldn't try to deny these because to do so is going to cause problems (and already is)

There are problems with some areas of feminist thought but nowhere does it promote that men and women need to be exactly the same. It's the opposite, it promotes the right to be whatever we want to be and not be told we have to be something specific in society, which means the right to be different and not to fit in to a mold of what a man or a woman is supposed to be and supposed to do. Equality for everyone doesn't mean that everyone is exactly the same just like equality of the sexes doesn't mean that women and men are all exactly the same. No two women are exactly the same so how are we expected to have men and women exactly the same?

I'm afraid you are simply wrong about this and i strongly recommend that you read up on marxist feminist thought; i also strongly recommend that you 'follow the money' to find out which of the strands of feminist thought are most financially backed by large corporate interests (you will find out that marxist feminism is the most powerful and is the one with the most influence in the media and in universities)

Equality for the sexes means that your competences and worth is not judged by your sex, that you have an equal opportunity to have a career and support yourself or to be in a partnership where you can raise your children without being deemed a 'lesser' man or woman because you aren't employed outside the home, that you can choose to not have children if you don't wish to, that you can have the same opportunity to vie for the same job and be judged on your capabilities without bias, to be paid fairly for the job that you do, to have equal voting rights and an equal say in the running of government and social institutions, etc...and the freedom to not have to fit into a preconceived idea of what a woman and a man is.

Here is a demonstration that might help people understand equality:


1+5+6+8 = 2 x 10 = 5+25-8-2 = 3 x 3 + 11 = 2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2 = 1150 - 1130 = .25 x 80 = .5 + .75 + 18.75

These are all equal but different. That is what equality is.

Then call it 'equality' NOT feminism because i'm sick and tired of certain groups claiming an ownership over the belief in equality

A belief in equality does not belong to feminists...it belongs to human beings who are able to be objective and there is nothing objective in the word 'feminism' (it is linguistically and energetically biased towards women through the linguistic construct of the word...'FEM'-IN-ISM)

 

[LucyJr]

I see how what you're saying here about the lion and the wolf is true to a degree. There is an obvious natural advantage. The average lion will have the advantage over the average wolf, but what about those that are not average? You said yourself that the woman depicted is stronger than some men. Why do you say she is still weak, simply because she is not a man?

because her physical constitution, the structure of her bones, the way her body is build is weaker then that of a man. It is really that hard to understand what I'm trying to say?

If a wolf were stronger than most lions, it would still be weak because it is a wolf? That's a very black and white way of thinking and I can't make sense of it. There is a great variety in human anatomy. True, most males will be bigger and stronger than most women, but to say that a man is strong just because he is a man just isn't logical.

It is logical, if a man's structural constitution of the body is stronger that that of any woman.

As far as mentally being weak, remember that sex is only a physical characteristic. What you can know with absolute certainty about all males is that they have male reproductive parts, that is what distinguish them as being men.

I totaly disagree with this. Men and women are very very different. Their whole psychonomy is different, the way they perceive things, what they want and what they desire. This so simply true, I'm surprised how many people like to say that there aren't really any differences between men and women, beaside bodily parts. Common, really? We have to be that liers when it comes to something so simple and so evident?

So to go back to the original question of this thread topic, I would like to point out that women typically don't make the first move in most cultures, but in some there is equal likelihood of either sex making the first move. I live in the United States and honestly I think there is about a 40 (women) / 60 (men) ratio of who "makes the first move."

I'm not doubting at all that women can make the first move. I live in a very conservative and traditional country, who hasn't heard (in many areas this is true) of feminism and what its supposed to mean.
But do you think all our women are super feminine? No, not at all. I know some girls right on my street which try so hard to act like guys that its laughable. Feminism is old, from the beginning of the world:

Genesis 3:16
Then he said to the woman, "I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth. And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you."

I can't tell you why women don't make the first move. I can tell you why people don't make the first move... They aren't confident in themselves, aren't confident in their feelings toward the other person, they fear rejection, they're waiting for "the right moment", they don't know "if they should" because they aren't sure how the other person will react, or what the consequences will be... Your hang-ups/fear/hesitation is greater than your desire for the person. There is a much greater risk and being the one to make the move, as opposed to the one who the move is made on.

You found a reasonable explanations, which I don't think its true.
The truth is this, at least how I see it: its about shame.
Not shame out of a society's pressure, but a kind of inner shame.
A man feels uncomfortable, and not only that, but stupid, if he is to be chased by a woman.
And vice versa, a woman feels the same, if she is to chase the man. It makes her feel uncomfortable, because its not her place, and deep inside, she knows it.

And secondly, the truth is that attraction between man and woman has a completely different nature: the woman is responsive to the attraction, while the man triggers it. That's how it is, and how it ever was.

yeah, I know many interesting things happen, like women making the first move and "chasing" a guy. But then again, that's not natural, and seriously, the kind of women who make this "first move" know very well what kind of guy works with that, if you know what I mean.

I will say that I have personally made the first move many times. I felt the other person would be comfortable with it, that he wanted to make the move, but was just too nervous or whatever. I can definitely remember being frustrated like "Damn it, why hasn't he kissed me yet?" and then I thought "Well, maybe he's thinking the same thing. I should just do it." You feel nervous right before, and in the first few seconds, then everything falls into place and you're so glad you finally worked up the courage to kiss (or ask for their number, hold hands, whatever is your idea of the first move.) If you want things to happen then make them happen.

I'm sorry, I disagree. This is because you dated guys who weren't grown up. Try to make the first move with a guy who knows where his place and your place is, and you will probably turn him off.

 

[the]

A lot of women have made the first move with me, perhaps you all are undesirable?

 

[muir]

A lot of women have made the first move with me, perhaps you all are undesirable?

go wan yerself big man!

 

[cvp12gh5]

I don't have that much experiece with women, because I'm not a womaniser, this of course if for you experience means "intimate experiece" or something of that sort.
But I grew up with alot of women, I acted like a boy around them when I was a boy, and because I'm a pretty smart guy, I learned alot. One of the things I learned is that in any woman there is almost a instinctual tendency to manipulation, by means of the simplest possible things.
Also I've learned that women have a pride of their own, a kind of condescending pride, a vain pride sort of speak, which is dangerous when it gets out. Such a pride that it can hurt people, and sometimes it can be a real danger.
God forbids to be the target of a woman jealousy, because there is nothing more stupid and ugly then that.
Should I tell you more?


Wait wait, perhaps you will think I am a victim, a kind of freak that hates the entire race of women, and this is the reason of why I have such a "stupid" view of them.
But I'm sorry, that's not true at all. I like women alot, especialy in my years, because I am young. I genuinely like women, and in case another last chance might slip into you head, yes, many many pretty girls genuinely like me as a guy, some of the prettiest, actualy.

You sound bitter. I'm going to go ahead and give you the "Bitter Bear of the Week" award. Congratulations.



I'm going to give it out on a weekly basis. I already have feeling you will own this game. I'm curious, what do attractive girls liking you have anything to do with this? I too like a lot of people in passing, but that doesn't mean I know who they really are. Share your views with one of them. You will slowly see your number of female acquaintances drop. I guarantee this or your money back.

 

[muir]

Bare in mind that Lucy Jnr comes from a more conservative culture as he's already said

It might be easy to judge things a certain way from the outside but they are doing their thing the same as the people from your culture are doing your thing

Here's the funny thing about 'western' culture...we all think it is the pinnacle of human behaviour because we have flashy TV programmes in which everyone seems really successful and happy and bouyant but in reality western culture is deeply insecure and deeply immature

There's an interesting book called 'affluenza' where the author travels around the world interviewing people from different cultures to see how happy they are

The more westernised cultures become the more neurotic they become because they are bombarded with fresh ideas all the time of what they are supposed to be doing or wearing or driving or whatever and this creates a moving target for people so that they neever quite feel content or secure and indeed our western ideology of 'consumerism' is dependent on us feeling insecure so that we keep buying stuff to try and feel complete

If you watch TV programmes about New York for example the people are all completely MENTAL! They're packed full of neuroses

In more rural areas people tend to be more relaxed, more grounded and less neurotic but of course the influence of satellite TV means that New York neuroticism can now be exported straight into peoples heads wherever they are in the world

Bhutan for example limits how long westerners can visit the country by charging them by the day for being there; this is to protect their culture from being westernised. satellite TV has actually become a massive threat to their native way of life

[video=youtube;N2KLyYKJGk0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2KLyYKJGk0[/video]

 

[cvp12gh5]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]
I understand what you are saying but you are making excuses for ignorance. He is capable of free thought, no? Or he is a product of his environment and doesn't know any better? If that is so then I should have turned out different. A barefoot and pregnant housewife with no ambitions but to serve my husband. That is the environment I grew up in. We lived in the country, farm land. My mother was there to serve my father and to have and care for the children. Men were strong and women were there to make sure things ran smoothly so that the men could handle the real work. And then I came along and changed their views on just about everything. My dad would tell his friends that the hardest living thing he ever tried to train was his daughter. And he still hasn't succeeded. He is very proud of me and the woman I have become and he wouldn't have it any other way, but it was a tough road for him to accept that I had a mind of my own. I suppose I ended up training him. Also, we didn't have television in my home. So I wasn't influenced by anything but my own mind. I do read a lot.

This is why I will ask you to please stop making excuses for this train of thought. I don't care where a person is from. We know he has access to the outside world through the internet if nothing else.
Physically, a lot of men are built more muscular than women. This is a biological fact. But mentally? This view of his, in and of itself, proves this theory wrong. Which leads me to conclude that he suffers from mental retardation. He is intellectually stunted.

 

[SpecialEdition]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]
I understand what you are saying but you are making excuses for ignorance. He is capable of free thought, no? Or he is a product of his environment and doesn't know any better? If that is so then I should have turned out different. A barefoot and pregnant housewife with no ambitions but to serve my husband. That is the environment I grew up in. We lived in the country, farm land. My mother was there to serve my father and to have and care for the children. Men were strong and women were there to make sure things ran smoothly so that the men could handle the real work. And then I came along and changed their views on just about everything. My dad would tell his friends that the hardest living thing he ever tried to train was his daughter. And he still hasn't succeeded. He is very proud of me and the woman I have become and he wouldn't have it any other way, but it was a tough road for him to accept that I had a mind of my own. I suppose I ended up training him. Also, we didn't have television in my home. So I wasn't influenced by anything but my own mind. I do read a lot.

This is why I will ask you to please stop making excuses for this train of thought. I don't care where a person is from. We know he has access to the outside world through the internet if nothing else.
Physically, a lot of men are built more muscular than women. This is a biological fact. But mentally? This view of his, in and of itself, proves this theory wrong. Which leads me to conclude that he suffers from mental retardation. He is intellectually stunted.

I think you are actually being unfair.

From an outside perspective it is very easy to make judgements on another person's cultures and opinions and experience if we think our way of thinking or our knowledge is superior to their personal experience and perception. I don't get the impression that Lucy hates women by any means. I think culturally it may be that there are certain social expectations or customs that are in place that have existed that way for a very, very long time. I do not think it is up to him to change his mind just by reading about things on the internet. He may look at North American Culture and think it is completely fucked up. Or, if he thinks it is preferable, how is he to implement those new ideas into a culture he is surrounded with an unable to escape from? Is that opportunity there? Furthermore, do the women there want it to be a different way? If the women are unhappy in their situation and they don't like how conservative it is, why haven't they risen up and fought for their rights as they did in North America and presumably in other countries?

I think it is quite easy to make statements about someone being ignorant or wrong when we do not live within the same fabric of reality that they do. In North America even if we have extremely humble upbringings we really do not have to go far for a change in scenery and to be among more liberal minds. That's just the nature of where we live. When you have entire countries/geographical areas that are very conservative, do you have to give up your life and move to another country altogether where you can live within your new frame of reference? Will the people there respond to your change in behaviour?

I don't personally know what the women are like over there. I don't know what their opinions and feelings are. I don't know if they feel oppressed by how the mating game works over there. I don't want to speak on their behalf and assume that I know better for them than they do for themselves. So on the other side of the coin, I can't judge a more conservative, "traditional" viewpoint of someone because I don't know if it's seriously and harmfully oppressive or not.

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]
I understand what you are saying but you are making excuses for ignorance. He is capable of free thought, no? Or he is a product of his environment and doesn't know any better? If that is so then I should have turned out different. A barefoot and pregnant housewife with no ambitions but to serve my husband. That is the environment I grew up in. We lived in the country, farm land. My mother was there to serve my father and to have and care for the children. Men were strong and women were there to make sure things ran smoothly so that the men could handle the real work. And then I came along and changed their views on just about everything. My dad would tell his friends that the hardest living thing he ever tried to train was his daughter. And he still hasn't succeeded. He is very proud of me and the woman I have become and he wouldn't have it any other way, but it was a tough road for him to accept that I had a mind of my own. I suppose I ended up training him. Also, we didn't have television in my home. So I wasn't influenced by anything but my own mind. I do read a lot.

This is why I will ask you to please stop making excuses for this train of thought. I don't care where a person is from. We know he has access to the outside world through the internet if nothing else.
Physically, a lot of men are built more muscular than women. This is a biological fact. But mentally? This view of his, in and of itself, proves this theory wrong. Which leads me to conclude that he suffers from mental retardation. He is intellectually stunted.

I can't believe this, how easily you switch to heavy words.
I do that sometimes too, but I know when I'm doing it I act stupidly. But do you know?

Maybe some will categorise your answer as typicaly "womenly"...you didn't argued rationaly, it was all a mess, a soup, and in the end your drama calls me "retarded": there you go, typical feminine behaviour.

But its not about that. There are also very smart women, bright and intelligent... and still they are women, and act like women.

Do you understand what I mean?
There is something fundamentaly different between a man and a woman. Like opposites poles. Period.
And you can not change that, no matter how many ugly sounds and words you will make.

 

[cvp12gh5]

I can't believe this, how easily you switch to heavy words.
I do that sometimes too, but I know when I'm doing it I act stupidly. But do you know?

Maybe some will categorise your answer as typicaly "womenly"...you didn't argued rationaly, it was all a mess, a soup, and in the end your drama calls me "retarded": there you go, typical feminine behaviour.

But its not about that. There are also very smart women, bright and intelligent... and still they are women, and act like women.

Do you understand what I mean?
There is something fundamentaly different between a man and a woman. Like opposites poles. Period.
And you can not change that, no matter how many ugly sounds and words you will make.

Yes there is differences between men and women. There is also differences between a woman/woman and man/man. Let me quote you on where exactly we disagree:

"This is what I'm trying to say...naturaly, the physical consitution of the man is stronger. And this is not just with regard to the physical aspect, but also to the mental aspect." Lucyjr

Not all men are naturally mentally stronger than women. This is absurd. Yes, some are but some are not. Therefore, naturally you are incorrect. No matter how ugly that sounds to you. And if you can't understand this simple ideal then I really do believe you to be intellectually stunted. I'm describing you, not insulting you.

 

[SpecialEdition]

Oh dear.... Here we go.

 

[sassafras]

It might be easy to judge things a certain way from the outside but they are doing their thing the same as the people from your culture are doing your thing

Here's the funny thing about 'western' culture...we all think it is the pinnacle of human behaviour

I think that's what it really comes down to.

Everyone's feathers get ruffled when they talk about the spread of Islamic beliefs, which of course go against many Western ideals, often citing the militant 'cramming down of beliefs down the throat' and leaving no room for people to think for themselves and be who they are being the most horrifying, but Western society has done the same thing... and continues to do the same thing. It demands that people think and feel and operate the same way the world over.

The thing is, the West dresses it up as justice and freedom and equality... when it is anything but. Again, our culture--Western culture-- is a heady mixture of contradictions and confusion that makes it very difficult to think clearly. Everything is in a constant state of flux, as @muir mentioned, which feminism as a hyper post-modern philosophy does indeed embrace.

Equality for women does fall under the umbrella of feminism, and I am all for the tenants of the philosophy that call for equal rights such as access to education, health, law, equal pay, autonomy over one's physical body and a woman's right to choose, but that is NOT ALL that feminism is. At least, not entirely. When you're arguing for equality, you're only arguing for one aspect of feminism. Feminism as a school of thought emphasizes the fluid, genderless, sexless, formless potential of the open womb versus the solid shape, weight, form and structure of the phallus. It is quite literally a philosophy of formlessness and chaos, and in itself, remains rather ironically sexist in that it permanently ascribes these traits to the archetypal feminine. THIS is why it's called 'feminism' not 'equalism.'

At which point one must be VERY careful when they sit down and critique feminist thought. Are you talking about women's issues in social justice or are you talking about a school of thought? Given how mainstream culture has chosen to embrace it, these two can sometimes be mutually exclusive.

Either way, no philosophy is ever the untouchable golden goose that is all together perfect and blameless and that must be accepted for the greater good without question or opposition, because just as there are very valid arguments for and against traditional patriarchy and what it represents, there are also very valid arguments for and against feminism and what it represents. Indeed, feminism as a philosophy would in fact EMBRACE this perspective, yet, we're kind of seeing the opposite happening.

Personally, if you're taking a binary view on ANYTHING in life (e.g. if you're not feminist, that means you hate women and you're a despicable human being) you're in big trouble. Bonus if you're someone who claims to ascribe to a post-modernist philosophy rather than a traditionalist perspective. If you're walking around trying to cram ideas down people's throats and ostracizing them for having different perspectives, while at the same time preaching the right to choose, I don't think you understand irony.

 

[LucyJr]

Yes there is differences between men and women. There is also differences between a woman/woman and man/man. Let me quote you on where exactly we disagree:

"This is what I'm trying to say...naturaly, the physical consitution of the man is stronger. And this is not just with regard to the physical aspect, but also to the mental aspect." Lucyjr

Not all men are naturally mentally stronger than women. This is absurd. Yes, some are but some are not. Therefore, naturally you are incorrect. No matter how ugly that sounds to you. And if you can't understand this simple ideal then I really do believe you to be intellectually stunted. I'm describing you, not insulting you.

Now, you are incorrect again, refusing to see something so simple.
I think all men are mentaly stronger then women. Why? Because they are men, not women. This is to say they are stronger simply in the virtue of being men and not women...why? because the nature of a man is different and stronger then the nature of a woman.
Imagine two ships. One is big, huge (the male), while the other one is small (the woman). Now, even when the big ship gets down and is unable to function, it is very true that the big ship is still bigger and stronger then the small ship, even if its unable to function.
Can you get this?
Its not something about what you can do as a woman, or something men can do as men, to change something in their very nature. Its about what makes a man a man, and what makes a woman a woman. Its the stuff that makes a woman, and the stuff that makes a man. And althought there are huge similarities, because both men and women are from the race we call humans, there is still fundamental differences, and one of them is that men are stronger then women, and somehow, wether you like it or not, more proud creatures.
Now if the instant reaction of you at the idea that this might be true (just that it might be true, not necessarely that it is) is one of offense and somehow of a inferiority complex, it proves that your understanding lacks sound reason.
If I would to take offense at something bigger and higher then me, I would be a fool. There is nothing to be ashamed off on my part, because my very nature is different then that of that being who is more complex and stronger then me. Its not about something I can do or i can not, its just how things are. And when I understand this, I realise that I need to be proud of who I am, and not feel inferior to anything, not even of those who are higher then me.
I hope you can understand this, if not, I'm not beating my head to explain it anymore.

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=12327]Anywhere But Here[/MENTION]

Also, althought feminists like to think they are "their own woman"...that is a lie that even they themselfs do not believe it.
Why? Because women are not attracted to men who are not strong. They need to respect him, to feel his strenght, not to walk all over him. This is simply true, it doesn't even need any argumentation, because its happening in real life, and when you see it, you laugh and learn of those striking differences between a woman and a man.

 

[Quiet]

I think that everything is energy....information that we are decoding into our 'physical' reality

Everything is energy, energy is information- it is consciousness. Everything vibrates at a particular frequency and has a specific 'tone' or 'song'

We make our own reality according to our beliefs, thoughts, emotions, and values. The inner reality is projected outward into the material flesh physical external world.
We attract situations, events, objects, circumstances, and people that resonate with our personal 'tone', or vibration. As the inner reality changes the external reality follows suit.
We see with our eyes, but we cannot see our eyes.... unless we look at a mirror...in this case we see a reflection of what we believe...on the inner level... we think we are.
We can only perceive that which we are prepared to see. There is a lot of information, but we can only 'recognise' what we are tuned into.
What we choose to think about is what we actually value. Often our desires and our thoughts contradict, sometimes because of fear. For example, someone might say they want peace, but they may focus instead on criticising war, and think about war and how bad it is...in this case, the person values conflict and is choosing to focus on war rather than peace. The external reality will then reflect this inner state, and the person will 'recognise' war.

Fast food is of a certain informational energy that is not going to resonate harmoniously with our body
You could take someone from the amazon rainforest who knows nothing about the content of fast food and feed them a diet of it and it will make them sick

Most fast food has a low vibration (not all of it). Much of it is produced unethically for unethical purposes. The question is, why are people attracted to fast food?
There are many different reasons people eat fast food - they are short on time, they are too busy to prepare food, they have limited resouces, they have limited options in their particular environment, easy accessiblity, saturation of fast food in that persons mindest/environment, conditioning from advertising, they dont like to prepare food, they dont know how to prepare food, they are disconnected from food, they are disconnected from their body, they dont think about food all that much, they dont value food, they are not concerned about where their food comes from, they are not concerned about nutritional value, they may be ambivalent towards their body, they are not concerned about health, they may be feeling low energy and are attracted to high sugar foods, they dont feel connected to the world around them...etc

Some people will eat fast food simply it is in front of them and they are hungry. But there are reasons why the fast food is in front of them.
The 'reason' we do something is very important. Finding the 'reason' is simple self awareness and self questioning. Its taking personal responsibility and empowering oneself.
We dont just do things 'just because'. We do them for a reason. We dont just like things for no reason. We are attracted to things according to our personal vibration.
We like things that resonate with us. What we 'like' says a lot about what we believe and what we value.
All this comes back to vibration. Some kids are brainwashed with fast food advertsing from within the womb...others are not....and it is likely that as adults they will make different choices for different reasons.

Not everyone wants to eat fast food, and many people do not eat it or even come across it. They will walk straight past it. And if they do try it, they may have no desire to eat it again. People value food for different reasons- taste, nutrition, beliefs etc. some people are so connected to their body and the world that the concept of eating unmindfully wouldnt even occur to them.

But some people can eat low vibration things and not get effected at all because of other factors, such as gratitude, and the firm belief in health, and in one's personal power.
What we think and feel about food is very important. When we are grateful and mindful of what we eat, we effect the vibration of the food to suit us, and our purposes through our intentions.

I stopped eating many things long ago because i hated 'corporations'. I was obsessed with corporations and how awful they were and how injust it was, and how i wanted them to change it, and how much i wanted people to understand this and stop.
And then i stopped. I started focusing on what i wanted rather than what i hated. I started taking pleasure in growing my own food, and appreciating anyone and anything that produced food according to my values. More of what i wanted started becoming available. Much of it was already available, but i didnt 'recognise' it before. The more i recognised it, the more i saw, and presently, i dont think about corporations anymore, i think about all the yummy locally grown, gourment goodness that is available to me.

Money is information, it is energy. Spending money is spending energy. Taking responsibility for our choices, and what we choose to support through our dollars is key to changing our cultural and economic landscape.

Concerning the people who are palying all the matrix games with our society they are psychopaths; they have no empathy

Now sure you can think about them in spiritual terms as creations of the source imagination of which we are all subjective expressions and you could say that they are created in this 'physical' reality to teach us something (probably that we should take responsibility)

But on the mundane plane of day to day existence in this physical play out world they are still beings with no empathy who want to wreak terrible havoc on other peoples lives

Now you can love those people if you want as expressions of the divine consciousness but at the same time I recommend you take steps to protect yourself and your loved ones from them

No fear- no harm. Love is always the only answer. Love releases all...Love release people from the past, and their fears. When we forgive people of their past, it allows them to forgive their past as well...and begin anew. It is hard for people to change when we keep reaffirming and concreting all the negative aspects we dont like about them. Forgiveness gives people permission to be something different than who they thought they were.
I'm not concerned about protecting myself and my family. I would rather live a full, rich, and open life. I would rather equip myself, and help others equip themselves with self Love, self awareness, self worth, understanding of how we form reality, understanding that we are One, and understanding how to take responsibilty and accept our own power.
We make our own reality. What we think is what we make. What we focus on is what we recognise. What we value is what we manifest.
There are a lot of people in this world living beautiful and free lives. This Earth is full of beauty and potential. Life is brilliant, magical, miraculous. There is infinite joy and peace, when we so choose it.

I'm not afraid of anyone, because I am not afraid of myself. I know who they really are, and I who I am. And I love. I couldnt have said that a couple of months ago, but I can safely say that in truth now. I believe in the force that created us, and I believe in myself, and I believe in life.

Concerning the gender bending you are talking about i want to draw it to your attention that certain things in our enviornment are being altered by the psychopaths who are forming the ruling class

They are putting gender bending chemicals in babies milk bottles so that boys are being feminised (PCB's). These chemicals are also being put into the water supply via plastics and the female contraceptive pill

They are pushing cancer causing GMO foods on the population

They are putting industrial flouride in the drinking water to calcify the pineal gland that you mentioned (to stop us from connecting with other realms of consciousness)

They are spraying aluminium particulates into our atmosphere so the alzeimers rates are going up ('geoengineering')

They are radiating our environment (many people believe that fukishima was an accident because thats what they have been told by the corporate media)

They are bathing us in RF frequency radiation through: wifi, smart meters and mobile telephone masts

I could go on and on and on and about the things they are doing but one of the things they are doing is trying to feminise men because they know that this ruins our potency as a species (male fertility rates are dropping) and they know that the people with the physical ability and the warrior mentality to oppose them are men

Once again this comes back to vibration and the 'why'.
A vibration of fear manifests hellish conditions. The way of out fear is foward, to Love.

Many people choose to use water filters, drink from their own rain water or other fresh water available, and dont use certain toothpastes.
I first stopped using commercial toothpaste because i hated multinational corporations. I then started using different herbal formulations and even making my own sometimes. I dont do this because im afraid of my pineal gland getting calcified, i did it because i wanted to be responsible. I did it because my vibration changed and therefore what i wanted in my life changed.

Rather than focussing on gmo food, lets focus on good locally grown and ethically produced food. Lets waste less food.

Lets concentrate on treating the people around us with Love, respect and good faith. Lets take responsiblity for our Self, and the world we make. Lets be mindful of our thoughts. Lets be mindful of what we choose to have in our lives and environment, in our bodies, and in our minds. Lets focus on what we want, rather than what we fear. Lets focus on our own thoughts and actions, rather than 'theirs'. Lets create happier selfs, happier families, happier communities, a happy world.

If people want to stop seeing violence, they should stop focussing on it.
I used to enjoy a certain level of violence in movies, and even now i can be ambivalent avout seeing violence sometimes in movies. But my friend is completely different. He abhors violence, and cannot stand to watch violence, rape, torture, or cruelty in a movie, videogame, or otherwise. He will walk away, leave the room, switch the channel. He says he doesnt like having those images in his head...once its there...its there...in his space...and effecting his mind space. He refuses to accept 'entertainment' of a violent nature. Despite being an incredibly extraverted, confident, social and in some ways 'aggressive' person, he has never been in a physical altercation, or been threatend by the one.

I have read the novels in the 'A song of fire and ice' series. I've watched some of the series. But the last time i watched it, i couldnt stand to look at large chunks of it, i skipped though a lot of it. It seemed like violence simply for the sake of violence and i felt queasy. Why should i put those images in my head? I choose not to. I havent watched any more since then. A lot of shows and movies i liked have started to lose their appeal. I can still appreciate them, for many reasons...but i dont want a lot of those images in my head. I dont want to choose violence, and....essentially, what we give our time to is what we choose.

Two and half months ago I had an experience with Shekinah, and she said that i was using the word 'zombie' too much and She asked why i chose to use that word. After i thought about it i realised the word wasnt something i really wanted to use. She then said it would be best to keep zombie related movies and videogames out of the house. Ironically, i had purcahsed 'the walking dead' series for my friends whom i live with a week ago. I dont watch zombie movies (i just find zombies stupid and unentertaining), but one of my housemates really enjoys them. I didnt want to tell them to stop watching it, but i wanted to share what i had experienced. Before i had a chance to speak with them about it, they approached me the next day and said 'thanks for buying that dvd, but its pretty boring, cant watch any more of it, its too crap to sell or give to charity..lol. Out of our life....unfortunately into landfill as we didnt recycle it.

The things we choose to focus on are very important. Im not saying that once you have a negative thought or image you then inevitably manifest it. It is more complex than that, it depends on all our other beliefs, the strength of the focus, the clarity of the intention, and the matrix of our mind system. But the question once again is 'why'...what is the reason we have chosen to focus on something? Do we like it? Do we value it? Do we want to see more of it in our world?


And also, i dont agree with black and white conceptions about men and women. I have explained my thoughts comprehensively in my previous posts

And...men have worn cosmetics in different periods of history. I dont understand why it is wrong to do this, or worse for a man to do this than a woman. Why cant a guy wear make up?

I think men have been hurt by our history and culture just as much as women have, and still are. People have been hurt because we put cultural constructions ahead of people. We put profit ahead of people, we put 'propriety' ahead of people, we put fear ahead of people, we put culture, society, and institutions before people, we put the status quo before people, we put survival and conformity ahead of life, freedom, and creativity.

When i was pregnant i hoped to have a girl, because i believe that in my culture, where i live, women potentially have it much easier. Women can wear pants or a skirt, shorts, or a dress. Women dont have to worry about being 'macho', or hiding their feelings, or being tough, or dealing with physical aggression as much as men do. Women only have to worry about hiding their nipples lol. Women can do much of what men do, and be respected and appreciated and honoured for it. They can be a 'tomboy' or be feminine, and are accepted either way. Yes, some fuckwits will call women 'bitchy', or 'slut', or 'butch' or some other ignorant term for expressing her creativity in the way she chooses...but most will accept her. And when people are given free license by the majority of people within a culture to explore their psyche and express their creativity, they can realise an 'ignorant' opinion and dismiss it.

Men, on the other hand...when a man does what 'women' do, that is completely different. Then its called...by many people both men and women- gay, effeminate, girly, pussy, not a real man, weak...boys are supposed to be tough, boys are not supposed to show affection, boys shouldnt care about their appearance, boys are supposed to compete, boys are supposed to fight, boys have to fight for dominance, boys dont hug, boys dont feel pain, ...men should know how to fix things...he's not a real man...real men are 'strong'?...boys dont cry. Seriously, boys dont cry? What the fuck. Boys and girls are humans, and humans cry, but sometimes cultures are fucked up and condition people to think being alive means conforming to other peoples unhealthy norms and values. Gay men are often stigmatised more than gay women. For some people, its sexy if girls kiss, its disgusting if boys kiss.
Men are much more limited in the freedom of their creative expression than women are. I believe that is changing. I know several families that have little boys, and those boys are being raised to honour themselves and their creative expression, and are given free reign compared to what my generation and my parents had.

Less people are caring about 'boys' and 'girls' games. A lot of parents i know simply want their kids to be 'happy', rather than to grow up and be a 'good man', or 'good woman'.

Do you know that pink used to be considered a masculine colour? None of this cultural shit is real. Yes penises and vaginas are real, tits and balls are real, sperm and wombs are real, eostrogen and testosterone is real, birth and death is real... but most of the shit that is ascribed to 'man' or 'woman' is a pile of bullshit so fucking high that we can barely recognise that we are human rather than characters playing cultural roles in a shitty play that hardly anyone likes or wants to watch. Cant we look past our genitals? Why should our genitalia dictate so much of our life?

So what if people are coming to understand that being a man or woman doesnt limit them from expressing their feminine and masculine energy? So what if people are allowing their humanity and personal expression of creativity to come before their gender?
Are many people happy with life as it stands? Are many people happy?
So what if society is crumbling apart, what the fuck are we trying to conserve and protect and save? Some miserable crumbling outdated institutions and cultural values?

Why is it a competion between the capitalist fascists and the communists facists....seriously, why is fascism our only supposed option?
Why not reject it and fuck it off. Why buy into these peoples shit and spread their fear mongering propaganda of doom and gloom and disempowerment and hatred and violence and disease?

Live your own life, your way. Concentrate on the energy of Love and what you want to create

And on the level of 'manipulating' energy and reality, it all happens on the mind level.
Someone could spend all day training physically, strengthening and enlargening their body. Someone could spend all day meditiating, strengthening and enlargening their psychic power.
Both these unbalanced dingalings would be at a disadvantage and probably quite disconnected and frustrated and constipated. The someone that used their energy and time in a balanced way, looking after their mind and body would be at an advanatge, because they would be spiritually connected and grounded, and more able to enjoy and clearly manifest their desired experience on Earth.

True 'strength' and power is not about gorillas banging their chests or people punching on, shooting guns at other people...who has the biggest stick and the most coconuts. It is going to bed everynight feeling peaceful, content, and satisfied, having a good rest, and waking up in the morning, completely refreshed, at peace with your being, empowered, excited, full of energy and joy, ready to experience another day flowing where ever your creativity takes you. Strength and Power belong to the heart and the mind. Psychic power is what decides the events of the day, our lives, and our world. And unconditional Love, the power of the heart is all encompassing, it is All That Is.

People feeling empowered is what changes culture and history, not weapons and brute strength.

 

[cvp12gh5]

I think you are actually being unfair.

From an outside perspective it is very easy to make judgements on another person's cultures and opinions and experience if we think our way of thinking or our knowledge is superior to their personal experience and perception. I don't get the impression that Lucy hates women by any means. I think culturally it may be that there are certain social expectations or customs that are in place that have existed that way for a very, very long time. I do not think it is up to him to change his mind just by reading about things on the internet. He may look at North American Culture and think it is completely fucked up. Or, if he thinks it is preferable, how is he to implement those new ideas into a culture he is surrounded with an unable to escape from? Is that opportunity there? Furthermore, do the women there want it to be a different way? If the women are unhappy in their situation and they don't like how conservative it is, why haven't they risen up and fought for their rights as they did in North America and presumably in other countries?

I think it is quite easy to make statements about someone being ignorant or wrong when we do not live within the same fabric of reality that they do. In North America even if we have extremely humble upbringings we really do not have to go far for a change in scenery and to be among more liberal minds. That's just the nature of where we live. When you have entire countries/geographical areas that are very conservative, do you have to give up your life and move to another country altogether where you can live within your new frame of reference? Will the people there respond to your change in behaviour?

I don't personally know what the women are like over there. I don't know what their opinions and feelings are. I don't know if they feel oppressed by how the mating game works over there. I don't want to speak on their behalf and assume that I know better for them than they do for themselves. So on the other side of the coin, I can't judge a more conservative, "traditional" viewpoint of someone because I don't know if it's seriously and harmfully oppressive or not.

When we are referring to the very specific problem I have with his train of thought- men naturally being mentally stronger than women- I don't think I am being unfair at all. It doesn't matter where you are from geographically to understand this and see examples of women being mentally at the top of their game and more so than men in some instances. I am not judging his traditional culture. I am judging him as a person. And he can judge me in return, I'm fine with that. We all do this on a daily basis, it's part of who we are as humans. And to be fair, I never accused him of hating women. He was surrounded by manipulative women growing up and it left a bad taste in his mouth, but no I do not believe he hates them.

You do make some great points but this isn't about where he's from and his culture. This is about him opening his mind to the very real possibility that both men and women are mentally weak and mentally strong. That's natural.