Anyone met a Twin Flame?

David Nelson said:
It’s always frustrated me that you have to seemingly play a game in talking to women.
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Be fresh-scrubbed and groomed, shine your shoes, don’t look like a shlep, be a reasonable and decent human being, and be yourself.

The only game is knowing how to properly iron and starch a nice shirt, :P

Cheers,
Ian
 
aeon said:
Be fresh-scrubbed and groomed, shine your shoes, don’t look like a shlep, be a reasonable and decent human being, and be yourself.

The only game is knowing how to properly iron and starch a nice shirt, :p

Cheers,
Ian
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Pretty patronising. You don’t understand me at all so you? I know it wasn’t meant that way, but this is the kind of crap I’ve got a lot of my life. Probably why I avoid people a fair bit of the time.
 
Sidis Coruscatis said:
So I'm probably right, because you always get snippy when I point out your vulnerabilities. If you have to rely on a convoluted-ass theory to redefine your rejection as some elaborate chess move that has to end in your favor, things start to get murky. Apply some Occam's razor and act accordingly. This is really about your emotions, not her.

And it's not just the TF business, you keep doing this with the whole typology and constant invoking of your functions as if that has any real argumentative value. It's vain intellectual fluff which has the only purpose of denying the possibility of your failure. Stop coddling yourself with pleasantly sounding theories and start paying attention to what is actually happening. I'm not your enemy here.
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Lmao, what a truth bomb.

I love this threads, they're really entertaining. If anything, you're not boring David. I know it's a serious matter, but it's good that you share openly and people provide feedback. It makes for a good read and hopefully can help you.
 
David Nelson said:
U mean I have nothing to be offer?
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@David Nelson I’m sure you have plenty to offer.

At the same time, this thread has reached this many pages, and based on your feedback, it doesn’t seem you’ve absorbed anything. Not that you’ve changed your mind, but that you’ve given any of it fair consideration.

Reread what @Sidis Coruscatis said to you. Both the message as well as the fact he is not your enemy. He offered you the gift of dropping politeness.

I don't think you are actually vain. That said, sometimes your expression is akin to someone with the insecure form of narcissism—a puffing of the feathers and chest when any of various vulnerabilities sense threat.

And that interferes with your ability to listen, as well as your ability to be a partner.

I Wish You Well,
Ian
 
David Nelson said:
It’s complicated. I feel at present it’s my job, but it may be more due to a lack of self esteem (lack of Fi doesn’t help). It’s always frustrated me that you have to seemingly play a game in talking to women. I’ve read a shit loads of dating stuff online. Some makes sense. It’s just so hard these days imo, worse than ever. I’ve always been on the sidelines so not had many chances naturally. Rarely get positive vibes from women. JP would say my genes are being rejected for good reasons! I can’t even achieve casual relationship stuff. Tried even with older women, not interested. I seem to speak a different language to women. I must be an alien.
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What is it about your job?

If you suspect you can't feel yourself very well, perhaps we could consider exercises for strengthening that. Knowing ourselves better never hurts and is essential for most relationships - romantic or otherwise.

As for games. Why do you say that? like to you, how would you describe this 'game'?
Personally, I don't feel dating advice online is going to help much. That's like trying to learn how to swim by reading swimming advice; fascinating perhaps but does nothing for our muscle memory. We have to go out there and splash around in vain for a while first.
Much of it, to me, seems focused on a goal: find a date, or persuade this person we're likeable. When much of finding love is a journey, not a destination.
Some of it is also quite toxic, though not knowing your browsing habits I can't say if you know what I mean. It's not hard to find though.

Why have you always been on the sidelines?

And, if you don't mind my incessant questions, what are your casual relationships like with other men?

David Nelson said:
U mean I have nothing to be offer?
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Perhaps? We all have something to give others, but whether we've found it and tended to it is another thing. And what we can give others varies greatly depending on where we are and who we're with.
Rather, if we have a history of the same problems over and over again, it's likely not the world conspiring against us but us conspiring against ourselves.

I'd personally think you have lots to offer, but you're not aware of how to offer it.
 
So sidis said all my theoretical discussions n here are bollocks. More like because he doesn’t agree with them. There are too many non-INFJ bullies in here. If being an INFJ doesn’t explain anything, why do INFJs suffer more than most? Are we inferior?
 
If you'd like speaking privately with me, please let me know.
I can't promise you answers, only questions. I can't promise we'll agree about everything, and perhaps in that we could learn from each other.

You're under no obligation to talk to me or anybody else here, nor explain yourself.
That said, a pervasive habit of not putting yourself out there will not lead to finding happiness with others. Fair or not, we have to be vulnerable for us to find some semblance of connection with anybody.
 
David Nelson said:
There are too many non-INFJ bullies in here.
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It's actually just a bunch of people who surprisingly care about your well being

David Nelson said:
I’m not going to entertain you any more
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I'm still undressing you with my mind
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David Nelson said:
So sidis said all my theoretical discussions n here are bollocks. More like because he doesn’t agree with them. There are too many non-INFJ bullies in here. If being an INFJ doesn’t explain anything, why do INFJs suffer more than most? Are we inferior?
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Not necessarily all the theories, but the way you go about interpreting them is highly indicative of something deeper. You're trying to fortify yourself against the tragedy of revelation of your inadequacy. It's necessary. Some things can be explained by your type, but people are more alike than not. Definitely so when it comes to love. I'm only saying all this because once, I was like you.

For what it's worth, I hope you can get what you need.
 
David Nelson said:
So sidis said all my theoretical discussions n here are bollocks. More like because he doesn’t agree with them. There are too many non-INFJ bullies in here. If being an INFJ doesn’t explain anything, why do INFJs suffer more than most? Are we inferior?
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He didn't say that. @Sidis said, you got rejected and now you are using theories to make it look like the rejection wasn't really a rejection.

Wyote said:
It's actually just a bunch of people who surprisingly care about your well being
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This ^

We are taking our time here and some of us, even our emotions, in trying to get you to view things from where others stand to help you. It is so much easier to ignore you but here we are.

Bullying? It sounded more like people were just being candid or frank with you.

aeon said:
I don't think you are actually vain. That said, sometimes your expression is akin to someone with the insecure form of narcissism—a puffing of the feathers and chest when any of various vulnerabilities sense threat.

And that interferes with your ability to listen, as well as your ability to be a partner.
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This.^

In other words, you don't listen. You don't listen and you are not learning from others' opinions without taking it as a personal attack against you.

What girl at all would like to be in a relationship with someone who cannot be reasoned with?

I can't speak much for dating. It's not my game either but as far as my experience has offered, basically when it's fun to spend time with someone, when a girl can let her hair down and still feel safe and appreciated, the other person starts to look like a yes, regardless.

But there is no fun in someone who insists that he is right at every turn. I mean that can be charming at times to other people but it depends on multiple circumstances so you are best advised to knock elsewhere where your quirks could be charming to someone. It's definitely not this tree though, that has been established. This here is called moving on.

I am sorry for your lonelines. That bit I understand. Loneliness is a difficult emotion to combat with and more so when self-love lacks fundamentally. I must say though, the antidote to that is not ONLY situated within any girl's acceptance. It is more likely something you must resolve first on your own.
 
Wyote said:
Most girls tbh
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Lulz :D :P

I love when you casually flick truth bombs, @Wyote

For both men and women, why would they seek out, ask for, or demand that which they were unaware of? And being unaware of it, they won’t be in possession of it, much less require it, of themselves.

In the absence of reason, non-darkside things like gender roles and magical thinking will have to do. And of course, there’s the darkside stuff.

Like energy seeks like energy. Simple as that. We resonate with people on our level, for better and worse.

Cheers,
Ian
 
aeon said:
I love when you casually flick truth bombs, @Wyote
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Thanks, it's my specialty

mintoots said:
Yeah, BUT he has to have at least made her feel safe at one point. The cutesy cutest arguments that blow up into huge fights are for after the line of no return has been crossed.
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What I mainly meant was-
Immature/inexperienced women gravitate towards unreasonable men due to a false sense of them being able to provide safety.
It's also more complicated than this but I can't elaborate right now.
Gotta make dinner, watch some hockey and pretend like I know what I'm doin with my life.
 
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Wyote said:
What I mainly meant was-
Immature/inexperienced women gravitate towards unreasonable men due to a false sense of them being able to provide safety
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Ahhhhhh. Yeah, I see your point.

Enjoy your honest pretending, pretender! ♡
 
David Nelson said:
The perception that someone is desperate can be because the person has not been lucky in the past for various reasons other than the person has little to offer. This is the problem, equating initial perception as a prediction of how a person is in a relationship. I know that’s how dating often works, but it’s fucked up. It leaves good guys ignored by women, and cocky bullshitters or at best guys no better than more hesitant guys getting success. Then women complain there are no good guys, but they ignored or friend-zoned them.
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I relate to this a lot. I have gone through similar experiences in dating; lots and lots of rejection. And I took it to heart. I am a sensitive person and have taken a lot of things to heart. Especially being abused as a child due to my caretakers not knowing any other way.

Connection is the most deep human need. If you feel like you don't have it and worse, feel like you can't have it, of course you'll be desperate. It makes sense.

I know everyone is trying to help you, but when you are in this state you are very fragile and the words don't really sink in. At least they didn't for me.

I experienced abuse at home and brutal bullying. I did not think the world was built for me. I thought I was fundamentally broken. I needed people to connect with and care about me. It turns out if we are not connected socially in a meaningful way it makes us *more* sensitive to rejection and more likely to perceive the actions of others as malicious, ironically, worsening our own isolation.

You can and will find connection. But it requires you to identify the obstacles keeping you from connecting with others. For me I had built this superiority complex to defend my ego- basically that I was so hard to understand, so unique, so special, that it was hopeless for anybody to be on my level. It turns out that nobody is ever able to understand anyone 100%- which was what I was craving. I had to learn to connect to others on their own level. I had to learn to not be so scared of people rejecting me or not liking me and keep looking. I had to develop resilience.

Again I'm only speaking on my own experiences. But I really really really really feel like I see myself in your words and actions. I totally relate to them. I grew up in a hard life and it really beat me down but I have been able to build myself back up. I had to realize there was nothing fundamentally wrong with me, I had to learn to listen to others and be willing to learn from others. I realized my instincts were often wrong.

One of the BIGGEST lessons which I think applies to your situation that I had to learn, and I can't remember if I already said this or only thought about saying it so forgive me if I already did, but it was: actions speak louder than words.

Because I was abused I have a really hard time telling people who are healthy from people who are not, people who might mistreat me. I had to learn to pay attention to what people do and not what they say. There was a social theory that helped me... Basically that all human relationships are built on "matching" behavior. Matching is, if I initiate a social interaction with somebody, they then reach out and initiate one with me and through returning these exchanges we grow closer.

If at any point a person fails to match the behavior early on in a relationship (including non romantic) it will naturally cause the relationship to not deepen because humans naturally want to match each other's level of interest. If we give to much without receiving in return, it will make the person receiving uncomfortable because it is then unequal. I had been taught to give and give and give because my parents expected me to and they did not reciprocate. This led me to falsely believing that a good relationship was one where I gave and waited for the person to give anything. In real life this doesn't work very well because like I said most people who are healthy want the give and take to be equal. So I would ignored people who were trying to show that they were not interested by not responding because I felt that this was normal (it is not.)

Once I was able to learn these "rules" and pay attention to others' behavior I was able to identify people who were actually interested in connecting with me. I was able to not be too "intense" when meeting people and thereby scaring them off. It is important to only invest in people who show interest right away in investing back in you because we really don't have time to "win people over." You will end up wasting your time on people who are either not able to reciprocate in a healthy way or people who simply don't want to.

Now that I have a lot of social connections, including a romantic one, I realize how hard it is to actually maintain all of these relationships. It takes up a lot of my time and there are people who I connect with who i don't have time to deepen the relationship with them and so our social time is limited. There are people who I wanted to get closer to who we had a connection but because they already had a full social network and life there wasn't really any room in their life for me. I used to take this personally but I've realized people only have time to maintain a certain social network and if it's full, they will not invest deeply in new connections because they already have adequate support.

So there has definitely been an element of learning how to enjoy ALL connection and not need to deepen all connection. I started a gratitude journal too, which I would fully recommend, because it will actually alter the neuropathways in your brain so that you can see things in a new way- they have done scientific studies proving this can happen.

Like focusing on being grateful for the moments of connection you have in everyday life-- like a friendly barista or somebody smiling at me on the street. People are mostly good and have good intentions. Sometimes our past hurts rob us of future joy because we keep believing the past to be a predictor of our future. But it is not. We can't fix what happened to us in the past but we can change how we look at the world and in turn this will change how the world responds to us.

I get that everybody is trying to help you out but either they've forgotten what it feels like to be completely alone and needing connection more than being alive itself, or they never experienced that before. The tough love approach didn't work for me- I only recovered because people gave me the chance to connect and because I wanted to connect more than I wanted to be right.

So try to remember that nobody here wants you to hurt or be lonely. None of us are trying to shame or embarrass you. It is this fierce desire that we all have for your happiness and wellbeing that is making people tell hard truths. We are complete internet strangers but we have big hearts and can see your pain and don't want you to suffer anymore. And you must know that deep down, right?


If you didn't have doubts about your beliefs, you wouldn't be here, and also even if you were here you wouldn't be so impacted emotionally by people doubting you no matter how many people did. So you know that there is something not right. You are not under attack here. We are only giving our own experiences as people who maybe are a little similar to you and walked a path parallel... Trying to tell you what we saw. You don't have to agree. But try to be open. You might find something helpful and if not ... You can leave. But I think there is something good here for you to think about.
 
What I have found many, many times in my life is when I ask people about something, they assume my ignorance and/or usually their superiority in the matter or even generally. But this is absolutely not what I am doing. I am seeking their opinion, which I never assume will always be better than my own, then I decide what to believe myself. Most people don’t seem to get this. I think it is perhaps one of the reasons INFJs get regularly misunderstood. Frequently on this forum, I have made points which have simply not been understood by most posters. Then I get patronised. I think there needs to be more INFJs on here. The consensus seems to be that if I do not believe the ‘group think’ on here I am wrong or not listening. I joined this group to get INFJ perspectives on things but it seems there are too many non-INFJs who don’t help us in being understood. So many times things are twisted because people do not understand what I meant. Then come snide comments to get ‘superiority’ and impress mates on here. No truth bombs have been dropped here on this thread, you have no idea what goes on in my head. Most of what you say I have already considered. I’d be better off talking to myself most of the time!
 
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