Critiquing and Policing

[hush]

That's exactly what I'm trying to say.

That's true for the most part, except when you're telling people to focus on the topic because they're focusing on other people.

In this instance, you're trying to actually foster discussion on the topic, and prevent petty disagreements from taking over threads - it's good to hash that stuff out elsewhere, if that's what you'd like to do, but it detracts from the topic.

Other than that, people should be able to discuss whatever viewpoint they like, yes, and to also discuss differing viewpoints in a civil, respectful manner.

 

[La Sagna]

I am not insulted by anyone's language. I am, however, put off by people that wish to attack my language and imply that I shouldn't be using such language. That's censorship.

Ditto

 

[Quiet]

How we communicate is an analogy of how we view the self and our world.
Believing in the divinity and ultimate authority of Self, I don't believe in any kind of policing or external authority.
I do believe that self governance is the only ethical means on governance, however it is not as simple as that. We are human after all, with our foibles and vulnerabilities. Any society is more effected/affected/defined/substantiated/ created/preserved/reformed by culture and cultural norms and the need for connection, acceptance and understanding, than by rules, laws etc. Power and authority only exist where we collectively imbue it.
Self governance only works in an environment of mutual respect and shared values, the same way, the only way things can work in any intentional community.

I think the most important resource we have is our time and energy. Choose where you give your time and energy wisely, as this is the only true power we have. Use your time and energy intentionally, not reactively.

"no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - a great lady once said.

If someone has a poor or deragotary opinion of you, ask yourself, is this person's opinion of the topic, or of my person, informed or relevant ? Is this person communicating with me with dignity and respect? Am I communicating with dignity and respect? What am I hoping to gain out of this interaction? Is it actually important and worth my time and energy?

The choice to not engage can be extremely powerful. There is a difference when people are genuinely trying to communicate with you, and when they are simply wanting some attention. Sometimes people are simply seeking to make their position feel safer by demeaning other people's positions. This has to do with issues such as self respect, self empowerment, and self worth. Any person that knows the true value of their worth will not feel the desire to belittle or mock their fellow humans.
It is important to be compassionate when communicating, especially when it is hardest. After all, all people are a mirror to you, to the Self. However, this compassion need always be balanced with self compassion. Put your Self first, always. Choose where you will give, engage, receive, share, develop, and be influenced. No one can take anything from you. And you are the highest authority on what is right and acceptable for you, what you deserve, and how you will choose to engage with the aspect of your Self that you have chosen to focus on

We know how important our values are through how vigilantly we practice them, by how often we 'give' them. Respect and dignity and freedom are extremely important to me, so it is up to me to give those things, regardless of what other people think. You are the only one that has to live with your Self, with your reality, look yourself in the mirror, get to sleep at night, and get yourself up in the morning. Only one opinion of Self is relevant or important or has the power to inform and define your life.
Put your Self, and your happiness first through exercising your power of choice. Everything else will fall into place. Put yourself first...and your environment and the people in your life will reflect the values you have chosen as worthwhile

Choosing to walk away from something clears more space in your life for something better and more suitable for you. Just keep walking towards what you want, or as they say (who the Fuck are they?) Keep your eyes on the ball. Who gives a shit what ball game other people are playing? Pay attention to your own life and what you want and always give what you value. Or try anyway, we can only try regardless of how often we have failed or how often the past and our insecurities rear their ugly head. It doesn't matter. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing, regardless of risks.
Sorry for getting preachy and carried away. I've typed this out on my phone which I hate doing lol but I can't see what I've already written or edit what I've written without the phone freezing, so i hope it is coherant

Any way, I hope you all have a brilliant wonderful blessed exciting peaceful happy day, because that us what you all deserve. Fuck everything else.

 

[La Sagna]

That's true for the most part, except when you're telling people to focus on the topic because they're focusing on other people.

In this instance, you're trying to actually foster discussion on the topic, and prevent petty disagreements from taking over threads - it's good to hash that stuff out elsewhere, if that's what you'd like to do, but it detracts from the topic.

Other than that, people should be able to discuss whatever viewpoint they like, yes, and to also discuss differing viewpoints in a civil, respectful manner.

I agree. The only thing I would like to say is sometimes there's a fine line between the focus being on the topic as opposed to the poster and it can be hard to separate the two, only because of the way the discussion may have developed, and sometimes what is or isn't perceived as personal is very subjectively judged.

 

[La Sagna]

How we communicate is an analogy of how we view the self and our world.
Believing in the divinity and ultimate authority of Self, I don't believe in any kind of policing or external authority.
I do believe that self governance is the only ethical means on governance, however it is not as simple as that. We are human after all, with our foibles and vulnerabilities. Any society is more effected/affected/defined/substantiated/ created/preserved/reformed by culture and cultural norms and the need for connection, acceptance and understanding, than by rules, laws etc. Power and authority only exist where we collectively imbue it.
Self governance only works in an environment of mutual respect and shared values, the same way, the only way things can work in any intentional community.

I think the most important resource we have is our time and energy. Choose where you give your time and energy wisely, as this is the only true power we have. Use your time and energy intentionally, not reactively.

"no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - a great lady once said.

If someone has a poor or deragotary opinion of you, ask yourself, is this person's opinion of the topic, or of my person, informed or relevant ? Is this person communicating with me with dignity and respect? Am I communicating with dignity and respect? What am I hoping to gain out of this interaction? Is it actually important and worth my time and energy?

The choice to not engage can be extremely powerful. There is a difference when people are genuinely trying to communicate with you, and when they are simply wanting some attention. Sometimes people are simply seeking to make their position feel safer by demeaning other people's positions. This has to do with issues such as self respect, self empowerment, and self worth. Any person that knows the true value of their worth will not feel the desire to belittle or mock their fellow humans.
It is important to be compassionate when communicating, especially when it is hardest. After all, all people are a mirror to you, to the Self. However, this compassion need always be balanced with self compassion. Put your Self first, always. Choose where you will give, engage, receive, share, develop, and be influenced. No one can take anything from you. And you are the highest authority on what is right and acceptable for you, what you deserve, and how you will choose to engage with the aspect of your Self that you have chosen to focus on

We know how important our values are through how vigilantly we practice them, by how often we 'give' them. Respect and dignity and freedom are extremely important to me, so it is up to me to give those things, regardless of what other people think. You are the only one that has to live with your Self, with your reality, look yourself in the mirror, get to sleep at night, and get yourself up in the morning. Only one opinion of Self is relevant or important or has the power to inform and define your life.
Put your Self, and your happiness first through exercising your power of choice. Everything else will fall into place. Put yourself first...and your environment and the people in your life will reflect the values you have chosen as worthwhile

Choosing to walk away from something clears more space in your life for something better and more suitable for you. Just keep walking towards what you want, or as they say (who the Fuck are they?) Keep your eyes on the ball. Who gives a shit what ball game other people are playing? Pay attention to your own life and what you want and always give what you value. Or try anyway, we can only try regardless of how often we have failed or how often the past and our insecurities rear their ugly head. It doesn't matter. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing, regardless of risks.
Sorry for getting preachy and carried away. I've typed this out on my phone which I hate doing lol but I can't see what I've already written or edit what I've written without the phone freezing, so i hope it is coherant

Any way, I hope you all have a brilliant wonderful blessed exciting peaceful happy day, because that us what you all deserve. Fuck everything else.

Very wise words. Thank you for taking the time to share

 

[invisible]

How we communicate is an analogy of how we view the self and our world.
Believing in the divinity and ultimate authority of Self, I don't believe in any kind of policing or external authority.
I do believe that self governance is the only ethical means on governance, however it is not as simple as that. We are human after all, with our foibles and vulnerabilities. Any society is more effected/affected/defined/substantiated/ created/preserved/reformed by culture and cultural norms and the need for connection, acceptance and understanding, than by rules, laws etc. Power and authority only exist where we collectively imbue it.
Self governance only works in an environment of mutual respect and shared values, the same way, the only way things can work in any intentional community.

I think the most important resource we have is our time and energy. Choose where you give your time and energy wisely, as this is the only true power we have. Use your time and energy intentionally, not reactively.

"no one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - a great lady once said.

If someone has a poor or deragotary opinion of you, ask yourself, is this person's opinion of the topic, or of my person, informed or relevant ? Is this person communicating with me with dignity and respect? Am I communicating with dignity and respect? What am I hoping to gain out of this interaction? Is it actually important and worth my time and energy?

The choice to not engage can be extremely powerful. There is a difference when people are genuinely trying to communicate with you, and when they are simply wanting some attention. Sometimes people are simply seeking to make their position feel safer by demeaning other people's positions. This has to do with issues such as self respect, self empowerment, and self worth. Any person that knows the true value of their worth will not feel the desire to belittle or mock their fellow humans.
It is important to be compassionate when communicating, especially when it is hardest. After all, all people are a mirror to you, to the Self. However, this compassion need always be balanced with self compassion. Put your Self first, always. Choose where you will give, engage, receive, share, develop, and be influenced. No one can take anything from you. And you are the highest authority on what is right and acceptable for you, what you deserve, and how you will choose to engage with the aspect of your Self that you have chosen to focus on

We know how important our values are through how vigilantly we practice them, by how often we 'give' them. Respect and dignity and freedom are extremely important to me, so it is up to me to give those things, regardless of what other people think. You are the only one that has to live with your Self, with your reality, look yourself in the mirror, get to sleep at night, and get yourself up in the morning. Only one opinion of Self is relevant or important or has the power to inform and define your life.
Put your Self, and your happiness first through exercising your power of choice. Everything else will fall into place. Put yourself first...and your environment and the people in your life will reflect the values you have chosen as worthwhile

Choosing to walk away from something clears more space in your life for something better and more suitable for you. Just keep walking towards what you want, or as they say (who the Fuck are they?) Keep your eyes on the ball. Who gives a shit what ball game other people are playing? Pay attention to your own life and what you want and always give what you value. Or try anyway, we can only try regardless of how often we have failed or how often the past and our insecurities rear their ugly head. It doesn't matter. If something is worth doing, it's worth doing, regardless of risks.
Sorry for getting preachy and carried away. I've typed this out on my phone which I hate doing lol but I can't see what I've already written or edit what I've written without the phone freezing, so i hope it is coherant

Any way, I hope you all have a brilliant wonderful blessed exciting peaceful happy day, because that us what you all deserve. Fuck everything else.

So true... thank you for your generosity with your thoughts

 

[ThomasJ79]

I am not insulted by anyone's language. I am, however, put off by people that wish to attack my language and imply that I shouldn't be using such language. That's censorship.

What do you mean by someone attacking your "language". You could've said opinion, but didn't. Restricting language is not the same thing as restricting opinion, for any opinion can be said any number of ways and the idea still expressed. This forum, as just about any forum I've ever been to places restrictions on free speech that are at the discretion of the owner, administrators, and moderators. The policy here states that "items that disrupt coherence, compromise legality or poison the friendly atmosphere are to be edited, deleted or moved as necessary." The operators of the site have the right to censor speech.

How are people trying to censor you? Other members are free to agree or disagree with you, just as you with them, and everyone can express that in any way they want within forum rules. Censoring is removing or preventing words from being said, not discouragement, so I'm not sure what you mean when you state that attacking your language is the same as censorship.

Clarification would be helpful here because I'm just not seeing evidence for an attempt toward censorship.

 

[JJJA]

What do you mean by someone attacking your "language". You could've said opinion, but didn't. Restricting language is not the same thing as restricting opinion, for any opinion can be said any number of ways and the idea still expressed. This forum, as just about any forum I've ever been to places restrictions on free speech that are at the discretion of the owner, administrators, and moderators. The policy here states that "items that disrupt coherence, compromise legality or poison the friendly atmosphere are to be edited, deleted or moved as necessary." The operators of the site have the right to censor speech.

How are people trying to censor you? Other members are free to agree or disagree with you, just as you with them, and everyone can express that in any way they want within forum rules. Censoring is removing or preventing words from being said, not discouragement, so I'm not sure what you mean when you state that attacking your language is the same as censorship.

Clarification would be helpful here because I'm just not seeing evidence for an attempt toward censorship.

I have never said that members shouldn't disagree. Instead of attacking opinion (which is very reasonable and relates to the discussion), attacking one's language is an attempt to stop them from using certain elements of language. There are several examples found on this forum in-which I comment on a topic (not quoting anyone; just a small comment) and is met with backlash by several members diverting away from the topic and focusing on what I said and trying to comment on me as a person rather than comment on the issue being discussed. I was also harassed several times by rants from people that tried to argue that my choice of words was either wrong or 'pejorative' or this and that. I don't care what my language triggers and, quite frankly, it is not up to them to decide how I express my views. I am not going to provide you with the evidence because these matters are over and done with and I am not going to start quoting people's posts; it will create more backlash.

 

[JJJA]

Feel free to be an asshole but don't be surprised when people react. And don't act like disagreement and dislike are necessarily connected - that's bias. Disconnecting personal feelings does not only apply when it benefits you.

Personal feelings shouldn't cloud your reaction to a post you may find more than disagreeable; this will make your reaction to the post personal and is exactly what happened on that thread.

 

[JJJA]

What's wrong with personal?

In the context of a discussion, making things personal is tantamount to shutting down debate and can be compared to ad-hominem which takes the issue away from the discussion and replaces it with petty attempts at personal attack.

 

[JJJA]

The person's right to speak MUST be heard, no matter how deeply his or her opinions offend you. I cannot stress this enough. You people think me mentioning Social Justice Warriors is such a wicked thing to say? Imagine if I created a thread titled 'THE HOLOCAUST NEVER HAPPENED'; David Irving is a British historian and was thrown into an Austrian jail because he had these views. He didn't even express those views in the country he was imprisoned, but was rather put into jail for THINKING those views. Thought-crime is not just a myth created by George Orwell, and I suggest those that are so offended by my little petty comments should take a step back and evaluate the danger of such a prickly reaction and how it is and has been used to the advantage of fascists throughout history to install a cult of dictatorship and totalitarianism. By using people's fears, doubts, narrow-minded perspectives and their personal feelings, they were able to literally brainwash the subjects of their state into complete capitulation and ownership. Just because what you hear is something you find repulsive, it still may contain a grain of historical truth or contextual information which may be useful.

 

[JJJA]

Is that what you think is happening now?

No.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

What do you mean by someone attacking your "language". You could've said opinion, but didn't. Restricting language is not the same thing as restricting opinion, for any opinion can be said any number of ways and the idea still expressed. This forum, as just about any forum I've ever been to places restrictions on free speech that are at the discretion of the owner, administrators, and moderators. The policy here states that "items that disrupt coherence, compromise legality or poison the friendly atmosphere are to be edited, deleted or moved as necessary." The operators of the site have the right to censor speech.

How are people trying to censor you? Other members are free to agree or disagree with you, just as you with them, and everyone can express that in any way they want within forum rules. Censoring is removing or preventing words from being said, not discouragement, so I'm not sure what you mean when you state that attacking your language is the same as censorship.

Clarification would be helpful here because I'm just not seeing evidence for an attempt toward censorship.

Are you trying to justify the notion that people should not be permitted to express their opinions in their own words, using the full breadth of the English language?

Are you advocating that having a list of forbidden words/phrases would be reasonable?

Are you advocating, in the absence of the existence of a lexicon of forbidden expressions, that restricting a forum member's language, after the fact, is not in itself censorious?

 

[JJJA]

Why isn't it?

What do you hope to gain by asking these questions?

 

[JJJA]

Are you trying to justify the notion that people should not be permitted to express their opinions in their own words, using the full breadth of the English language?

Are you advocating that having a list of forbidden words/phrases would be reasonable?

Are you advocating, in the absence of the existence of a lexicon of forbidden expressions, that restricting a forum member's language, after the fact, is not in itself censorious?

If he has such a huge issue with my criticism of people attempting to censor my language, I think that is exactly what he is implying. I just hope people don't jump on this nasty bandwagon of consensus and collectivism; that of a clique and bullying attempts to name and shame those that express an opinion which does not conform to their personal acceptance of what an opinion should look like. It's extremely dangerous.

 

[JJJA]

I gain absolutely nothing. What do you gain with all this?

I also gain nothing, which I why I asked.

 

[La Sagna]

I have never said that members shouldn't disagree. Instead of attacking opinion (which is very reasonable and relates to the discussion), attacking one's language is an attempt to stop them from using certain elements of language. There are several examples found on this forum in-which I comment on a topic (not quoting anyone; just a small comment) and is met with backlash by several members diverting away from the topic and focusing on what I said and trying to comment on me as a person rather than comment on the issue being discussed. I was also harassed several times by rants from people that tried to argue that my choice of words was either wrong or 'pejorative' or this and that. I don't care what my language triggers and, quite frankly, it is not up to them to decide how I express my views. I am not going to provide you with the evidence because these matters are over and done with and I am not going to start quoting people's posts; it will create more backlash.

If this is about arguing that my explanation of why the word 'mangina' is derogatory towards women is censoring you then you are wrong and looking at it in a backwards way. I did not ask for your post to be deleted but I have the right to argue and explain why that word is derogatory. Censorship is telling me that I shouldn't be allowed to respond in whichever form I like. My answer was in no way a personal attack or based on hurt feelings, or censoring you. My answer was based on my knowledge of social biases and the ways they harm women. If you don't like that I will point out when you say things that are derogatory then too bad. I did not try to censor you, I tried to inform you. If you can't handle someone sharing pertinent information with you then don't post on their thread. You seem to me to have a double standard; it's ok for you to share your opinion and share information backing your opinion but not for others to do so. You are arguing that it is ok for other people to be censored to protect you from feeling like you are being censored.

 

[JJJA]

If this is about arguing that my explanation of why the word 'mangina' is derogatory towards women is censoring you then you are wrong and looking at it in a backwards way. I did not ask for your post to be deleted but I have the right to argue and explain why that word is derogatory. Censorship is telling me that I shouldn't be allowed to respond in whichever form I like. My answer was in no way a personal attack or based on hurt feelings, or censoring you. My answer was based on my knowledge of social biases and the ways they harm women. If you don't like that I will point out when you say things that are derogatory then too bad. I did not try to censor you, I tried to inform you. If you can't handle someone sharing pertinent information with you then don't post on their thread. You seem to me to have a double standard; it's ok for you to share your opinion and share information backing your opinion but not for others to do so. You are arguing that it is ok for other people to be censored to protect you from feeling like you are being censored.

My comment had nothing to do with any of what you said here. If I remember correctly: I used the word 'mangina' and to which you called derogatory, and to which I said I simply don't care and didn't wish to offend your vagina. The rest of your comment has no truth to it and is just a bunch of false implications. I have never said you shouldn't express yourself, nor have I displayed the double standard you speak of. Not all of my comments involve you.

 

[La Sagna]

If he has such a huge issue with my criticism of people attempting to censor my language, I think that is exactly what he is implying. I just hope people don't jump on this nasty bandwagon of consensus and collectivism; that of a clique and bullying attempts to name and shame those that express an opinion which does not conform to their personal acceptance of what an opinion should look like. It's extremely dangerous.

Nobody is trying to shame you. That is making it personal. You are telling us that if several of us disagree with you then our opinions should be dismissed as collectivism and jumping on the bandwagon of consensus. You don't understand much about INFJs if you think jumping on the bandwagon is something that we do. If anything, we are usually wanting to stay away from the bandwagon. You come on an INFJ forum to post your opinion and then complain when we all agree on a position that happens to be the opposite view of your position on a matter. What do you expect? On the other hand, if you read what others who are 'collectively' disagreeing with you at times you will realize that we often disagree with each other as well. We are not going around on threads and deciding what the majority's position is and deciding that we're just going to agree with everybody else's position. No, we go on there and we make comments that we feel like making and if there happens to be several people with a differing opinion than you then so be it. I wouldn't want to censor people just because too many of them disagree with you.

I don't want to censor you, but I am getting the impression that you want to censor some of us.

 

[La Sagna]

Haha, Thumbs down for proposing true free speech. I think it is censorship to suggest that we shouldn't be allowed to share our opinions in common because it is dangerous for several people to agree on something. I'm arguing that people can say what they want but then people should be allowed to respond to the post.