Dealing with Achmedinajad

[Billy]

I have to do no research to see this.

Well at least your sorta honest.

 

[Billy]

If Hitler had nukes? I seriously doubt he would have attacked Israel, it didnt exist... and he had the jews in his camps... he would have used his Nukes on Russia and the United States to gain control. Contrary to popular belief Hitler wanted to rule, not just to kill the jews. That was just 1 "solution" his people devised of many. By the way, they also gassed homosexuals, mentally handicapped people, gypsies, undesirables, political enemies, etc etc.

 

[the]

If Hitler had nukes? I seriously doubt he would have attacked Israel, it didnt exist... and he had the jews in his camps... he would have used his Nukes on Russia and the United States to gain control. Contrary to popular belief Hitler wanted to rule, not just to kill the jews. That was just 1 "solution" his people devised of many. By the way, they also gassed homosexuals, mentally handicapped people, gypsies, undesirables, political enemies, etc etc.

If I was mentally handicapped I would demand my own country, just for fairness sake.


But seriously, why do Jews deserve protection and not Arabs? Seems to me that Jews who arent even suffering the threat of Iran want to get in on the killing. Is it any wonder Jews get treated like they do?

 

[Billy]

If I was mentally handicapped I would demand my own country, just for fairness sake.


But seriously, why do Jews deserve protection and not Arabs? Seems to me that Jews who arent even suffering the threat of Iran want to get in on the killing. Is it any wonder Jews get treated like they do?

Well there is definite anti-semites in the world, lets not gloss over that. But Israel to me is a bit of a joke, the majority of "jews" there are just white people from Europe or the US with little to no blood ties to the region. The Palestinians may not be the same as the Jews of old, but for gods sake they're the same people who inhabited the region for 1000s of years. Just because you smack "jew" as a label on yourself doesn't mean you are from the region... most of the original jews converted to Islam long ago, so seeing all these white people don a religion and then claim it gives them a birthright to a land their ancestors didnt even come from is insane to me...

 

[Quiet]

I am trying to be as polite as possible, and I'm sorry if this post is offensive. I have a great deal of respect for the OP because she is willing to ask uncomfortable questions and is trying to understand the issue and explain her point of view on something that is clearly close to her heart.

With the risk of sounding totally naive and stupid, Im going to suggest something radical.

What about diplomacy?

Why cant we fund some hospitals, schools, community centres and churchs/mosques in Iran? What about some mutual trade, some exchange programs, scholarships and internships? The Iranian people seem pretty tech savvy and are more or less well educated. They are also desperate for change and reform. They want peace and freedom for themselves. Surprisingly, people have less reason to hate you and be a danger to you if you help them and don't threaten them. If you can touch the hearts and minds of the common people of a country, and be useful to them, in essence you will radically change the culture and governance of that country. It seems pretty reasonable to give Iran foreign aid to this end as the US currently provides Israel with foreign aid so that it can 'defend' itself. And as someone else previously mentioned, who is defending the Palestinians from the countless human rights abuses they have suffered and are continuing to suffer.

I am not convinced Ahmadinejad is any more of a madman than any of the current/past leaders of the western world.

There are more options than war/kill or be killed. This same problem is repeated all over the world in a myriad of ways.

At home, we have a huge 'issue' with refugees. These desperate people from war torn countries (many from Afghanistan and Iraq) travel thousands of miles in rickety, dangerous boats, dealing with the scum of the earth (their saviours) so that they can land on our fair shores and be put into detention camps and despised by my country. Everyone whinges because these refugees cost millions of dollars to process and house, and that they are stealing our jobs and that they cant be trusted. What no one really wants to do is address the real problem of why they keep coming.
If we were to seriously invest in infastracture, schools, hospitals etc, maybe we could help educate these people and they would find a better future in their own country. Our government has started investing in this cause -$36 million over 4 years in Afghanistan, which is a good start but a cop out considering how much we have spent destroying their country and then spend again picking up the pieces with processing refugees.

And lastly, at the risk of being more offensive, there are only two countries in the world that Im personally scared of - USA and Israel. Theres nothing scarier than an upredictable, unreasonable, greedy bully.

 

[muir]

The sites were bombed for nuclear-related activities. What would Hitler have done with nukes? I did not get even a guesstimate.

If you do not know who Iran has threatened to obliterate, I'm not going to tell you. Nobody is trying to destroy the Jews in Israel?
Maybe I have been living in a different world.....

The days of smart bombs have drastically changed American warfare and goals. I have to do no research to see this.

'Nuclear related activities'....that's a good one! That's right up there with 'weapons of mass destruction'

Why are we discussing what would have happened if hitler got the a bomb? He had a V2 rocket which could possibly have delivered the bomb and who would have been in the firing line? Us...the brits...not you. it was our cities that got flattened in the blitz, not yours.

Thanks to the bravery of Norwegian commandoes the heavy water factories were destroyed. 50 British commandos died in an aeroplane crash as part of this raid. The only part the US played in this was in making the film after the war called 'the heroes of telemark'!

While i'm at it, Hollywood claimed in its film 'enigma' that the US captured the enigma machine, but it didn't the UK did! Hollywood also depicted Errol Flynn single handedly capturing Burma in 'Operation Burma' when the US was barely involved in that theatre. Hollywood doesn't like to let fact get in the way of a good lie though does it?

If people are trying to obliterate jews in Israel then they are doing a pretty crap job of it; it seems to me its the Palestineans being obliterated.

Smart bombs are not stopping the killing of civilians in drone attacks. They were there since the first gulf war but one million Iraqis have still been killed in the second conflict. Not to mention the sanctions imposed on Iraq before the war which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq

 

[just me]

I'll just say there will be a rude awakening one day, and it makes me feel pretty sad. Feel it coming.

 

[Barnabas]

Maybe is most of Europe hadn't tried to appease Hitler, then less of it's cities would have been leveled. At least less of the ones near the U.K.

 

[Feelings]

Your reply assumes all governments are equal, when in reality people are not the same, and governments are not the same. We don't give guns to 5 year olds or paranoid schizophrenics or old people with alzehimers. In the same way, there are some governments in the world that can be trusted with nukes, and other governments that cannot.

Based upon whose judgment and whose values?

 

[just me]

Some people have the ability to understand things others simply cannot understand. There are many things I certainly do not fully understand, as they are not my calling. Each of us have gifts; hence, each of us better at some things than others. There are, of course, those that think they are gifted in all things and understand all things. There are those that think they are better than anyone else. On the other end of the spectrum of light, there are those that feel they are not as good as anyone else. There are those that feel they simply are lesser than most.


Everyone has a certain ability to think and feel the way they do. Some may call that a right, but I choose the word "ability". People that are using their abilities to better serve humanity are definitely living the life of their calling. There are most definitely other abilities than just thinking and feeling.


I have found politics and such to exploit the people to the point they are talking and even voting outside their abilities. There are specific things not voted on, though mostly our elected officials may very well make the call on those things. I would guess that means we have had our say to a certain degree.


I would never go to a control tower and tell someone in air traffic control what I thought they should do. I would never tell a brain surgeon how to perform brain surgery. I did tell brain specialist one time I thought they might could stimulate adjacent areas to the Brochas to try to help someone speak, but a loved one had lost their ability to speak and I was just trying to get someone to think outside the box. One of them felt it rediculous, while a neurosurgeon made a funny look on their face that they might look into that one day. My point is multifaceted, but the gist of it is there are people that understand what they are doing and it is best to leave them to their jobs. Some people are performing their masterpieces from their experience, while others are just beginning to learn of the subject. I have seen quite a few bold and brassy guys filled with testosterone and their egos get put in their place by experienced fighters. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule.


There are entirely too many armchair warriors that think or feel they know what is best in a volatile situation. Maybe they should have gone to Iraq and put out the oil fires. Maybe they should have placed the first man on the moon and brought him back home. I am glad to see so may authorities, as that is what the world needs. Please do not take this as a stab or a poke.

 

[muir]

I'll just say there will be a rude awakening one day, and it makes me feel pretty sad. Feel it coming.

The rude awakening is already here! have you been living under a rock?

 

[muir]

Maybe is most of Europe hadn't tried to appease Hitler, then less of it's cities would have been leveled. At least less of the ones near the U.K.

If the world had handled Germany differently then there wouldn't have been a Hitler. Hitler's support grew out of peoples anger at how germany was treated after WW1 and over the role the international bankers played in it all

 

[muir]

Some people have the ability to understand things others simply cannot understand. There are many things I certainly do not fully understand, as they are not my calling. Each of us have gifts; hence, each of us better at some things than others. There are, of course, those that think they are gifted in all things and understand all things. There are those that think they are better than anyone else. On the other end of the spectrum of light, there are those that feel they are not as good as anyone else. There are those that feel they simply are lesser than most.


Everyone has a certain ability to think and feel the way they do. Some may call that a right, but I choose the word "ability". People that are using their abilities to better serve humanity are definitely living the life of their calling. There are most definitely other abilities than just thinking and feeling.


I have found politics and such to exploit the people to the point they are talking and even voting outside their abilities. There are specific things not voted on, though mostly our elected officials may very well make the call on those things. I would guess that means we have had our say to a certain degree.


I would never go to a control tower and tell someone in air traffic control what I thought they should do. I would never tell a brain surgeon how to perform brain surgery. I did tell brain specialist one time I thought they might could stimulate adjacent areas to the Brochas to try to help someone speak, but a loved one had lost their ability to speak and I was just trying to get someone to think outside the box. One of them felt it rediculous, while a neurosurgeon made a funny look on their face that they might look into that one day. My point is multifaceted, but the gist of it is there are people that understand what they are doing and it is best to leave them to their jobs. Some people are performing their masterpieces from their experience, while others are just beginning to learn of the subject. I have seen quite a few bold and brassy guys filled with testosterone and their egos get put in their place by experienced fighters. There are, of course, exceptions to the rule.


There are entirely too many armchair warriors that think or feel they know what is best in a volatile situation. Maybe they should have gone to Iraq and put out the oil fires. Maybe they should have placed the first man on the moon and brought him back home. I am glad to see so may authorities, as that is what the world needs. Please do not take this as a stab or a poke.

You're absolutely wrong, we should question authority that is the whole point of democracy.

I wouldn't have gone to Iraq because i don't believe in the conflict. My family has however been in various conflicts when they have been called up and have fought, died, been incarcerated and been decorated fighting Hitler and Japan

War has a heavy price and shouldn't be entered lightly especially not because a country has built an economy over 60 years geared around weapons manufacture:

[video=youtube;8y06NSBBRtY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y06NSBBRtY[/video]

 

[Barnabas]

If the world had handled Germany differently then there wouldn't have been a Hitler. Hitler's support grew out of peoples anger at how germany was treated after WW1 and over the role the international bankers played in it all

Don't along with the world crap, it was Europe that screwed Germany after the WWI, the U.S. actively lent money to Germany after WWI to help with it's debt.

 

[muir]

Don't along with the world crap, it was Europe that screwed Germany after the WWI, the U.S. actively lent money to Germany after WWI to help with it's debt.

No it lent money to get Germany INTO DEBT

That's how it all works! Thats what the IMF and World Bank are doing to 3rd world countries today. That's why Hitler rejected any money from the money markets and started printing mefo bills

I've got some bad news for you. The US empire is collapsing. It has overstretched itself, allowed itself to be sucked into unwinnable wars and has created a giant economic ponzi scheme through fractional reserve banking and various financial instruments designed to cloak illegal activity.

There are going to be riots in the US and quite possibly a revolution which is why the government has passed NDAA and why it has set up FEMA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fema

The US is on the way out

Now all it needs to ask itself is if it wants its empire to collapse messily lashing out at other countries, which will only help the military industrial complex or US citizens could challenge the authority in the US and ask them what the hell they've been playing at?

The US shouldn't blame the Iranians for the fuck ups of the US

Or you could get back in your tardis, go back a century and prevent the creation of the fed.

 

[Barnabas]

No it lent money to get Germany INTO DEBT

That's how it all works! Thats what the IMF and World Bank are doing to 3rd world countries today. That's why Hitler rejected any money from the money markets and started printing mefo bills

I've got some bad news for you. The US empire is collapsing. It has overstretched itself, allowed itself to be sucked into unwinnable wars and has created a giant economic ponzi scheme through fractional reserve banking and various financial instruments designed to cloak illegal activity.

There is going to be riots in the US and quite possibly a revolution which is why the government has passed NDAA and why it has set up FEMA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fema

You're on the way out...kaput...geddit?

Now all you need to ask yourself is if you want your empire to collapse messily lashing out at other countries, which will only help the military industrial complex or do you want to challenge the authority in your country and ask them what the hell they've been playing at?

Don't blame the Iranians for the fuck ups of the US

Germany was forced to pay reparations under the Treaty of Versailles, not any world bank. Germany then defaulted on that debt, the U.S. then loaned Germany money to pay of France and Britain via the Dawes plan. Also what the hell are you talking about, have I mentioned anything outside of the time between WWI and WWII? What does Iran have to do with your bad history? oh wait it's because of your bad history...........

 

[muir]

Germany was forced to pay reparations under the Treaty of Versailles, not any world bank. Germany then defaulted on that debt, the U.S. then loan Germany money to pay of France and Britain via the Dawes plan. Also what the hell are you talking about, have I mentioned anything outside of the time between WWI and WWII? What does Iran have to do with your bad history? oh wait it's because of your bad history...........

You are only looking at the surface of this thing.

History cannot be seen in neat little compartments. There are indivduals, for example Kissinger, who have been involved in shapeing policy for decades. Then there are organisations such as the federal reserve that have been involved for a century, then there are families and political dynasties that have been shaping things for centuries, then there are modes of thought, religious beliefs, ideologies and esoteric teachings that have been influencing things for centuries and sometimes for millenia, then there are guiding plans such as the Washington Consensus (and neoliberalism) that have been steering things for decades etc etc

Then there are methods of control that are as old as civilisation such as getting someone into debt to you.

I didn't say the world bank funded Hitler, i said the world bank is getting third world countries in debt NOWADAYS

Iran has to do with this discussion because this is the 'dealing with Achmedinajad thread'

The people who draw up these treaties and who provide the funds and who run the banks and who bankroll wars are all part of the same power elite and that elite even has ties across the pond between the US and the UK.

Communication does not go on between the US and UK periodically by an underwater phone line or a satellite link it goes on through countless, complex relations between people in those two countries and the ideas that they abide by through consensus tacit or otherwise

The US has made a series of blunders. I have been saying that capitalism (especially in its current form) is unsutainable for years (you can read my comments to this effect going right back to when i came on this forum).

In the US that form has revolved around fiat currency, fractional reserve banking and through building an industry around war, which is why the US has been in conflicts non stop since WW2 when it altered its industry and economy to be focussed on war.

This state of affairs is coming to an end. The US empire is collapsing.

What it may do out of desperation is lash out at other countries because this may be seen as a good way of galvanising the population against an external threat instead of a revolution developing within the US itself.

The communist movement was incredibly powerful in Europe before WW1 as the workers began to feel a common bond with their fellow industrialised workers across Europe. The war took the wind out of the sails of this movment by killing millions of workers and by turning people against each other...by boosting nationalistic feelings

At the moment in the US and in Israel there are protests against austerity and the corporate usurption of democracy. The power elites may consider a war as a way of dealing with this threat from within. They have already changed laws such as the Patriot Act and the NDAA and the creation of FEMA to prepare for the time when they lose control of their population and declare martial law.

The other measure they can take is a raid on the savings accounts of the populations in order to deal with the banking 'crisis' by holding a bank holiday in the states and in europe and freezing everyones savings accounts. They would then write down the value of the money, leaving everyone impoverished. See link to interview on keiser report below

here are some very smart and clued up people talking about the collapse of the US empire and debt:

[video=youtube;_D332EWC3I4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D332EWC3I4[/video]

[video=youtube;evZkchRX-wk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZkchRX-wk[/video]

[video=youtube;7zotYU21qcU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zotYU21qcU[/video]

[video=youtube;dAQenwkZyxI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAQenwkZyxI&feature=relmfu[/video]

Here's an interesting interview on the Keiser report at 14:00: [video]http://rt.com/programs/keiser-report/episode-238-keiser-report/[/video]



Iran should not be scapegoated for the mistakes that the US has made

 

[Different]

The poll has too little options so I had to pick the most extreme option that didn't include doing something to Iran :/

 

[Barnabas]

'Nuclear related activities'....that's a good one! That's right up there with 'weapons of mass destruction'

Why are we discussing what would have happened if hitler got the a bomb? He had a V2 rocket which could possibly have delivered the bomb and who would have been in the firing line? Us...the brits...not you. it was our cities that got flattened in the blitz, not yours.

Thanks to the bravery of Norwegian commandoes the heavy water factories were destroyed. 50 British commandos died in an aeroplane crash as part of this raid. The only part the US played in this was in making the film after the war called 'the heroes of telemark'!
While i'm at it, Hollywood claimed in its film 'enigma' that the US captured the enigma machine, but it didn't the UK did! Hollywood also depicted Errol Flynn single handedly capturing Burma in 'Operation Burma' when the US was barely involved in that theatre. Hollywood doesn't like to let fact get in the way of a good lie though does it?

If people are trying to obliterate jews in Israel then they are doing a pretty crap job of it; it seems to me its the Palestineans being obliterated.

Smart bombs are not stopping the killing of civilians in drone attacks. They were there since the first gulf war but one million Iraqis have still been killed in the second conflict. Not to mention the sanctions imposed on Iraq before the war which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq

This is what sparked the conversation we are having, I responded with this

Maybe is most of Europe hadn't tried to appease Hitler, then less of it's cities would have been leveled. At least less of the ones near the U.K.

you replied with this

If the world had handled Germany differently then there wouldn't have been a Hitler. Hitler's support grew out of peoples anger at how germany was treated after WW1 and over the role the international bankers played in it all

To which I replied

Don't along with the world crap, it was Europe that screwed Germany after the WWI, the U.S. actively lent money to Germany after WWI to help with it's debt.

Do you get where this is going, I'm not talking about Iran, I'm talking about the time period between WWI WWII which led to Hitler. No the U.S. wasn't trying to control Germany, if they wanted the Germans indebted they could have demanded reparations from the TOV. Instead, President Wilson went about trying to bring peace and stabilization to Europe through the league of nations and worked for Germany to have less required from them in reparations and then tried to loan the Germans the money so that they wouldn't default (which they did, Wilson couldn't work fast enough unfortunately). To say that what was put on the Germans post-war was fair would be anything but the truth, but it was Europe that lead to the creation of Hitlers 3rd Reich, not the U.S.

 

[muir]

This is what sparked the conversation we are having, I responded with this



you replied with this



To which I replied



Do you get where this is going, I'm not talking about Iran, I'm talking about the time period between WWI WWII which led to Hitler. No the U.S. wasn't trying to control Germany, if they wanted the Germans indebted they could have demanded reparations from the TOV. Instead, President Wilson went about trying to bring peace and stabilization to Europe through the league of nations and worked for Germany to have less required from them in reparations and then tried to loan the Germans the money so that they wouldn't default (which they did, Wilson couldn't work fast enough unfortunately). To say that what was put on the Germans post-war was fair would be anything but the truth, but it was Europe that lead to the creation of Hitlers 3rd Reich, not the U.S.

Wrong wrong wrong, some US bankers bankrolled Hitler and the banking houses are INTERNATIONAL and operate across borders. The federal reserve is owned by private bankers, many of which are European. Everything is integrated

IBM provided the recording devices used to record the names of jews going into the concentration camps

There is much more to this whole story then what the state sanctioned history books say

The US did play a part in world affairs at that time. Britain was the world power at the time. If you are wanting to apportion blame then you could argue that other players were more central to matters and i would agree with you. Ties between the UK and US have been very strong especially through groups like the Milner group and various round table organisations, so they have been making decisions together and worked together on buiilding the A bomb. Today there are sister think tanks like chatham house in the uk and the council on foreign relations in the US which coordinate thought over the ocean

The US however became the next world power and has been wreaking military, enviornmental and economic havoc across the world since

The US empire is coming to an end the same as the UK empire did

the question now is should the US attack Iran and i would say NO