Deeper understanding of the Enneagram & Triads

arbygil said:
What you don't want to do is anticipate the test, RL. Plus, each Enneagram number has qualities that can be similar to others. 5 is very calm too, but the *motivation* of a 5 is "to possess knowledge, to understand the environment, to have everything figured out as a way of defending the self from threats from the environment."

The calm of a 9 comes from wanting "to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them."

Sometimes you have to figure out what motivates you - or which is more like you. Then find the triad that matches your moods when you're totally at ease, and when you're really stressed out.

You might have to take more than one test as well. Like the MBTI, certain ones make more sense than others. If you'd like, I can try to find other Enneagram tests that may help.
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Thank You Arby :), I would greatly appreciate that!

I see what you mean by the calmness of type 5, and in the end I see how I can relate to type 5. I am greatly motivated by understanding everything, I always want to get to the bottom of every concept. I can also relate to type 2 in the sense that at my best, I am always trying to help others, make everybody happy. I can see 8 as my negative side, when I loose control I can become pretty angry and frustrated at others, thinking that I have the correct decision, it takes quite a bit to get to that though..

I am at my best and most motivated when I am 2/5
 
arbygil said:
but the *motivation* of a 5 is "to possess knowledge, to understand the environment, to have everything figured out as a way of defending the self from threats from the environment."
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This is something that makes me confused between 6w5 and 5w6 for my type.
To have everything figured out as means protection I relate to very well, I'm almost always vigilant, but I see this is attributed to both types.
 
arbygil said:
What you don't want to do is anticipate the test, RL. Plus, each Enneagram number has qualities that can be similar to others. 5 is very calm too, but the *motivation* of a 5 is "to possess knowledge, to understand the environment, to have everything figured out as a way of defending the self from threats from the environment."

The calm of a 9 comes from wanting "to create harmony in their environment, to avoid conflicts and tension, to preserve things as they are, to resist whatever would upset or disturb them."

Sometimes you have to figure out what motivates you - or which is more like you. Then find the triad that matches your moods when you're totally at ease, and when you're really stressed out.
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This.

I thought I was a 5w4 for a while (however I only briefly looked at it then just took at face value for like a year, when in reality 4 is my second lowest). However once tdht told me to look at it again, I read something very much like what arby said "what motivates you". While yes I have some motivations of a 5, it is not nearly as strong as the motivation of a 1; the need for everything to be "right". Keep in mind the interpretations of each number is open. When someone hears "the need to be right", they think that the need to win arguments. That's not true for me. When I hear right, I need everything to be the way I already have planned in my head; it must line up exactly as I feel it needs to be.

For you, you need to think about what really pushes your buttons if it doesn't work out. I think you might be a 5w4. The aspects of that seem to get under your skin the most when you can't achieve that, and you express the aspects of a 5 when under stress. A 5 also has a tie to 7 and 8 which I can definitely see for you. You need to become more like an 8 (as that is what 5's need to do) but that goes against your nature, and you can default to a 7 when under stress.
 
Peppermint said:
This is something that makes me confused between 6w5 and 5w6 for my type.
To have everything figured out as means protection I relate to very well, I'm almost always vigilant, but I see this is attributed to both types.
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Here's one (possibly quick) way to figure out the differences. Do you worry excessively? Are you afraid about being safe, in that you'll do whatever it takes to be safe for you? Are you very loyal to a fault?

Or, do you guard your "me" time with an iron fist? Do you get bent out of shape when folks interrupt you? Are you always in your head considering theories, to the exclusion of all else?

Whichever is *more* like you is your main Enneagram; your wing will influence how you respond to life, though.
 
arbygil said:
Whichever is *more* like you is your main Enneagram; your wing will influence how you respond to life, though.
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Thank you so much for making that type clear, the description from type four describes almost perfectly how I respond to life, while type 5 describes who I am in the sense that I am constantly motivated to know..

Could you explain a 5w4, please?
 
Raccoon Love said:
Thank you so much for making that type clear, the description from type four describes almost perfectly how I respond to life, while type 5 describes who I am in the sense that I am constantly motivated to know..

Could you explain a 5w4, please?
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Sure. :)

BTW, Just in case you want to investigate it further, I'm pulling the majority of this from the main Enneagram website (Riso's main website: www.enneagraminstitute.com). A link to their sample test (smaller version than their test you pay for) is here: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/dis_sample_36.asp?discover . Scroll to the bottom for the test.

Enneagram 5

Basic Fear: Being useless, helpless, or incapable
Basic Desire: To be capable and competent

And I'm stealing this description of the two from a Blogspot post, because it's the best description of their differences (and why reinvent the wheel?):

5w4 - Seeking Knowledge and Identity


The difference between the 4 wing and the 6 wing in Fives is like the difference between Art and Science. 4 wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them. When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Clich
 
And @Peppermint:? Here's the 6w5 description - compare it to the 5w6 from above and see which seems more like you:

6w5 - Seeking Security and Knowledge

Sixes with a 5 wing are generally introverted and somewhat intellectual. When healthy, they often have many realms of interest as well as surprising competencies and skills. May have an original and idiosyncratic point of view. Can be bookish; some are interested in history or feel rooted in the past or related to a long tradition. Also good at predicting the future. May test potential friends for a long time but once you're in, you're in - a friend for life. When more entranced, they may project a willed remoteness. Have a "tip of the iceberg" quality - they show little but you sense hidden dimensions, intensity and activity. Tension between needing to be seen and withdrawing for protection. Might act arrogant or cryptic or cynical when afraid. When phobic, can be diplomatic and say things without saying them. Entranced counterphobics are either cool and loners or argumentative, tending towards violence. Can brood over injustices to them, entertain conspiracy theories, spend time alone building cases. Paranoia in private. May like secretive behind-the-scenes group activity. Sneaky vengeance, passive/aggressive toward others, self-attacking and self-destructive at home.
 
arbygil said:
Here's one (possibly quick) way to figure out the differences. Do you worry excessively? Are you afraid about being safe, in that you'll do whatever it takes to be safe for you? Are you very loyal to a fault?

Or, do you guard your "me" time with an iron fist? Do you get bent out of shape when folks interrupt you? Are you always in your head considering theories, to the exclusion of all else?

Whichever is *more* like you is your main Enneagram; your wing will influence how you respond to life, though.
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I've read up extensively on descriptions, and 5w6 - 6w5 still seem suspiciously interchangeable to me in the way the descriptions are phrased. I know they have different key motivations, but they are both still in the Anxiety focused triad, and with being wings to each other it's not so easy to distinguish, especially seeing how there are varying stress levels of other types that could be the cause of anxiety such as stressed out 9s seeming like 6s.

Interestingly enough, I can see a lot of 8 in me. I'm not a dominant personality by any means, but self sufficiency, wanting to have a feeling of control over circumstances that impact me (however I have no desire what so ever of exercising control over anything else) and being "strong" by my standards are very important to me. I considered I might be a counterphobic 6 simply projecting some 8ish traits, I also considered I might have 8 as my gut part of tritype, but I'm also considering the 5-8 relation now.

Both anxiety associated with the thinking triad and anger associated with the gut triad make a sizable proportion of my psychological make up. It's said that when sixes exhibit anger it is a reaction to fear, or anxiety, and I can see this in me, but my anger is by far a reaction to feeling trapped, being imposed upon, or being forced into something the most. In that sense I do identify with this very strongly:

guard your "me" time with an iron fist? Do you get bent out of shape when folks interrupt you?
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However I still do worry excessively and want to be safe, but not at all costs.
 
Peppermint said:
I've read up extensively on descriptions, and 5w6 - 6w5 still seem suspiciously interchangeable to me in the way the descriptions are phrased. I know they have different key motivations, but they are both still in the Anxiety focused triad, and with being wings to each other it's not so easy to distinguish, especially seeing how there are varying stress levels of other types that could be the cause of anxiety such as stressed out 9s seeming like 6s.

Interestingly enough, I can see a lot of 8 in me. I'm not a dominant personality by any means, but self sufficiency, wanting to have a feeling of control over circumstances that impact me (however I have no desire what so ever of exercising control over anything else) and being "strong" by my standards are very important to me. I considered I might be a counterphobic 6 simply projecting some 8ish traits, I also considered I might have 8 as my gut part of tritype, but I'm also considering the 5-8 relation now.

Both anxiety associated with the thinking triad and anger associated with the gut triad make a sizable proportion of my psychological make up. It's said that when sixes exhibit anger it is a reaction to fear, or anxiety, and I can see this in me, but my anger is by far a reaction to feeling trapped, being imposed upon, or being forced into something the most. In that sense I do identify with this very strongly:



However I still do worry excessively and want to be safe, but not at all costs.
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To be honest, you feel much more like a 5 to me, and more of a 5w6 than a 6w5 - especially if you value your individual time. A 6w5 is more apt to want people around them and to please people; a 5w6 is less likely to behave that way. I say try it on for size, and see how it feels. :)
 
I'd always read that 4s tie in with 1s and 2s. The 1-4-7 triad is new to me.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'm a 1 or a 4, and I have no doubt I'm an sx/so... and these descriptions make it pretty clear why my chiropractor thinks I'm an 8.... though I honestly can't decide which is more me. The overall descriptions of 1 and 4 are also in the middle. When I was emotionally healthy and pretty naive, I was very much the description of a 1. However, now that I'm coming out of my deep depression, and have gained a lot of wisdom from everything I've been through these very difficult years, the description of 4 seems to be winning out... but is that just a side effect of the depression, or have I changed?

4 Sexual/Social

This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.
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1 Sexual/Social

The instinctual energy of this subtype is the most at odds with their dominant Oneness. This subtype is the most intense. They are looking for perfection in everyone they are close to, not just their spouses. They can be very charismatic and engaging. They can also be very persuasive, like the social/sexual. If they have an opinion you are going to hear about it. It
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Peppermint said:
I've read up extensively on descriptions, and 5w6 - 6w5 still seem suspiciously interchangeable to me in the way the descriptions are phrased.

(etc.)
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You might have read these already, but if it helps here's what that ocean-moonshine site has to say about type 5/6 misidentifications:

"As Sixes are often intellectual, they sometimes mistype or are mistyped by others as Fives. This is especially likely to occur if the wing is strong. Sixes tend to be more grounded than Fives however and usually form bonds with their fellow humans more readily than do Fives. In addition, Sixes have a much more immediate relationship to their emotions than do Fives whose primary defense, after all, is detachment.

Sixes and Fives can quite readily mistype, especially if the wing is strong and the Six is intellectual. It is typically Sixes who mistype, or are mistyped by others as Five, rather than the reverse. Both types can be drawn to systems of thought, and counterphobia in Sixes can mimic the iconoclasm common in type Five. Sixes, however, tend to relate far better than Fives do to whomever is a part of their social scene, and Sixes, in general, tend to find it easier to find a niche than do the more idiosyncratic Fives. Also, as a general rule, Sixes are more likely to look for and find practical applications to theory than do Fives who are often uninterested in such considerations. Finally, Sixes, unlike Fives, do not habitually detach under pressure."
 
VH said:
I'd always read that 4s tie in with 1s and 2s. The 1-4-7 triad is new to me.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'm a 1 or a 4, and I have no doubt I'm an sx/so... and these descriptions make it pretty clear why my chiropractor thinks I'm an 8.... though I honestly can't decide which is more me. The overall descriptions of 1 and 4 are also in the middle. When I was emotionally healthy and pretty naive, I was very much the description of a 1. However, now that I'm coming out of my deep depression, and have gained a lot of wisdom from everything I've been through these very difficult years, the description of 4 seems to be winning out... but is that just a side effect of the depression, or have I changed?
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maybe this helps?

Possible Mistypes

Fours and Ones are both oriented towards an ideal, although the One's ideal generally has a moral torque whereas the Four's is more aesthetic and personal. Both can also have perfectionistic streaks. But Fours tend to be self-absorbed, and, when stressed, become self-indulgent and more emotionally expressive, whereas Ones under stress become increasingly self-denying and emotionally repressed.
 
VH said:
I'd always read that 4s tie in with 1s and 2s. The 1-4-7 triad is new to me.
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Perhaps you're thinking about personality wise and not how they integrate/disintegrate. But 1-4-7 is on the scale. If you're into going deeper with the descriptions, I suggest this site: http://enneagramtriads.com/html/the_18_triads.html . It discusses the different triads and how they affect one another. You could be a total of six combinations. You just have to figure out what number is like you normally, which one is you when you're under stress, and which one you aspire to (what you'd consider to be your "perfect" state).

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'm a 1 or a 4, and I have no doubt I'm an sx/so... and these descriptions make it pretty clear why my chiropractor thinks I'm an 8.... though I honestly can't decide which is more me. The overall descriptions of 1 and 4 are also in the middle. When I was emotionally healthy and pretty naive, I was very much the description of a 1. However, now that I'm coming out of my deep depression, and have gained a lot of wisdom from everything I've been through these very difficult years, the description of 4 seems to be winning out... but is that just a side effect of the depression, or have I changed?
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Again, see above. Check that link on the triads, and see if it makes sense. If it doesn't, I can try to help you figure it out. :)
 
Here's where my confusion is coming in...

This approach...

bn471.jpg


...is different from this approach...

E-SymFourlabeled.gif


Obviously, people have differing opinions on how this stuff works, as it is psychological in nature, and there isn't any science behind it, but I'd prefer to know which of these approaches is considered the 'most accurate', because to be honest, depending on the test and the description, it goes either way rather drastically. Sometimes I'm very clearly a 1 and not a 4. Other times I'm very clearly a 4 and not a 1. Still other times, neither of them seem to fit very well.


However, I like this Triad idea, because I usually test 1w2 and 4w5, and that would mean my other side is 8w7, according to this set up...

View attachment 3246
 
I'm not sure where you found that, VH - I've always seen the points of integration and disintegration as I've described above, and Riso/Hudson uses that same pattern here. Even Wikipedia uses it in the Enneagram description under each Enneatype: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality

This is why the symbol is drawn the way it is - it's showing all the points of integration and disintegration.

ETA: Ah, I see what you're saying. Okay. You're right, it can depend on the model, although what works for one number might not work in reverse. In the Riso model for a 4, the points are 1 and 2. But it's not the same in reverse. For a 1, the disintegration is 4 and the integration is 7. For a 2, the stress is 8 and integration is 4.
 
One test says i'm a 6, the other a 4. Not sure what's true. Don't really understand the wings either.
 
Res said:
One test says i'm a 6, the other a 4. Not sure what's true. Don't really understand the wings either.
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Read through these two pages of descriptions, Res, and see which one seems more like you:

Enneagram 4
Enneagram 6

Also, ask yourself this: Do you crave security above everything else? Are you fiercely loyal - to a fault? Do you have a problem following authority figures? Do you worry often, perhaps excessively?

Or--

Do you feel estranged from society, and feel as if you must be different from others? Are you most afraid of being "ordinary"? Are your feelings "intensified" by your imagination?

See which one feels more real to you. Once you settle on your E-type, then we can discuss your possible "wings."
 
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