Fallacious Argument Clinic

mintoots said:
I actually like this phrase. Things can be unbearably chaotic and uncontrollable so to me this phrase awards strength when most necessary.

May I ask why you hate it?
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It is redundant for there can only be what is. Not to mention, It is an argument of giving into a state of inefficacy or inaction. It is the throwing up of hands. Yes, it is, and it should be confronted for what is. Strength isn't in defeat, it is found in what happens after defeat.

It reminds me of one of my favorite Jerry Seinfeld routines about people who use their voice to produce noise. Speaking of nothing, making declarations of nothing.

 
John K said:
You must love this song then .... :p

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Oh John, don't go pushing my figuratively aversive buttons unless you hope for me to figure out yours. ;p haha.
Oh, and thanks for the earworm. :grimacing::sweatsmile:
 
Anomaly said:
Oh John, don't go pushing my figuratively aversive buttons unless you hope for me to figure out yours. ;p haha.
Oh, and thanks for the earworm. :grimacing::sweatsmile:
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I hope you stuck with it long enough for the bonus fallacious argument at the end - the bit where they go off and trash the astronomical observatory to stop any more meteorites hitting them :tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:
 
Anomaly said:
It is redundant for there can only be what is. Not to mention, It is an argument of giving into a state of inefficacy or inaction. It is the throwing up of hands. Yes, it is, and it should be confronted for what is. Strength isn't in defeat, it is found in what happens after defeat.
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I had an inkling you'd say that. While I agree with that on certain matters when as a principle, one must take a fighting stance, there are moments in life when a level of surrender allows a warrior to rest and take stock. Not all fights can be fought by one person and so there are times when we as individuals ought to be able to identify when we are able to say that it is what it is, indeed. For example, one may be borne from a rapist and be filled with loathing for it, but to be consumed by such loathing would only incite loss more than a win. Or, a warrior for example, may have to compromise at times. In which case, it has to be what it is. Not being able to say such may lead to the degradation of the individual as not everything is fully within our control. We have a fight when we have a fight and we have a reach whenever we have a reach (boxing) but at times the particularities are beyond us. Thus, I think a proper warrior should have to learn to accept some things as it is to be able to fight the winnable fights. But of course, for reasons of the phrase being used as cowardly shield, no. Against that, we fight.
 

The plot’s an old one now, but it’s evergreen sadly.

Not sure if this is available internationally - still …. que sera ….
 
mintoots said:
I had an inkling you'd say that. While I agree with that on certain matters when as a principle, one must take a fighting stance, there are moments in life when a level of surrender allows a warrior to rest and take stock. Not all fights can be fought by one person and so there are times when we as individuals ought to be able to identify when we are able to say that it is what it is, indeed. For example, one may be borne from a rapist and be filled with loathing for it, but to be consumed by such loathing would only incite loss more than a win. Or, a warrior for example, may have to compromise at times. In which case, it has to be what it is. Not being able to say such may lead to the degradation of the individual as not everything is fully within our control. We have a fight when we have a fight and we have a reach whenever we have a reach (boxing) but at times the particularities are beyond us. Thus, I think a proper warrior should have to learn to accept some things as it is to be able to fight the winnable fights. But of course, for reasons of the phrase being used as cowardly shield, no. Against that, we fight.
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I greatly appreciate this take on the phrase and will be sharing with another infj in my life who also despises it to get his input. Thank you. ❤
 
mintoots said:
I actually like this phrase. Things can be unbearably chaotic and uncontrollable so to me this phrase awards strength when most necessary.

May I ask why you hate it?
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I understand where @Anomaly is coming from with this phrase, because it has become a cliche that reflects a conventional cop out, an everyday cowardice that accepts things that should be challenged.

That’s not the whole story though. My life’s energy is far more Yin than Yang. Behind the simple cliche of ‘it is what it is’, is the idea of going with the flow rather than trying to attack or resist when these are a nonsense - and channeling instead of forcing uselessly. Water in the long run is more powerful than most things in nature.

I dislike the phrase, but that’s because it hijacks and trivialises something profound rather than because I disagree completely with its deep meaning.
 
@John K @Anomaly

I hope my post didn't come off as a rather fiery assertion. Sometimes I can be very blunt without minding it so I hope that didn't cause any discomfort.

I do see why the phrase comes off as an annoying stance. If anything, I am constantly enraged by it. However, I also recognize the exhaustion that comes with every losing battle so I somewhat could not help but relate with the flip side of the coin too. It is easy to feel powerless no matter the insatiable idealism, even if it were coupled with fierce combat or even graceful tactic maneuvers. This is what poverty of the spirit does. It's just that when I read it, I could see very well images of wounded idealists all cooped up in their passivity in the name of survival. It would be nice to keep having them with us in battle but I also understand their pain so...

Tldr
Anyhow, I understand why people give up and I wanted to be able to say that without judgement. I hope it wasn't chilling. I also am annoyed when it's used as a cop out, but I also want to understand cowards so this post is quickly turning into a mess. :sweatsmile:

Anyhow, carry on. It is what it is. :grimacing:
 
mintoots said:
I had an inkling you'd say that. While I agree with that on certain matters when as a principle, one must take a fighting stance, there are moments in life when a level of surrender allows a warrior to rest and take stock. Not all fights can be fought by one person and so there are times when we as individuals ought to be able to identify when we are able to say that it is what it is, indeed. For example, one may be borne from a rapist and be filled with loathing for it, but to be consumed by such loathing would only incite loss more than a win. Or, a warrior for example, may have to compromise at times. In which case, it has to be what it is. Not being able to say such may lead to the degradation of the individual as not everything is fully within our control. We have a fight when we have a fight and we have a reach whenever we have a reach (boxing) but at times the particularities are beyond us. Thus, I think a proper warrior should have to learn to accept some things as it is to be able to fight the winnable fights. But of course, for reasons of the phrase being used as cowardly shield, no. Against that, we fight.
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Oh, I hope I didn't convey that I think that there is 'weakness' in surrender, when appropriate and exhausted all efforts. All of us must submit to things far outside of our control (of course, while typing this I am going through one of those very things and must surrender despite what I want). It is prudent to consider the will of others and the influence of circumstance, so defeat is a natural response, and sometimes yielding to it is in fact an incredibly strong act (especially when longing to be in stubborn defiance to that opposition of your own will and desires, longing to clarify or to understand). I think the phrase 'It is what it is', assumes defeat and an unwillingness to act. It doesn't entail what occurs after defeat, which is the grappling of it, but then... you are moved, propelled forward and must act again, so in this I find that there is even more potent force to affect change in another direction than once surmised. I find that the phrase is often used as an excuse not to do the latter, or to debase others' experiences as the 'norm of life', of which they should have no complaint or objections.

I understand why it can be used meaningfully, but I think the will to act despite 'what is' is the more integral thing warranting focus. I appreciate your thoughts on this, Min.
 
John K said:
I understand where @Anomaly is coming from with this phrase, because it has become a cliche that reflects a conventional cop out, an everyday cowardice that accepts things that should be challenged.

That’s not the whole story though. My life’s energy is far more Yin than Yang. Behind the simple cliche of ‘it is what it is’, is the idea of going with the flow rather than trying to attack or resist when these are a nonsense - and channeling instead of forcing uselessly. Water in the long run is more powerful than most things in nature.

I dislike the phrase, but that’s because it hijacks and trivialises something profound rather than because I disagree completely with its deep meaning.
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I think we are of the same line of thought, John. Thank you for expounding on it so eloquently. Of course, I enjoy your metaphor as well. <3
 
mintoots said:
@John K @Anomaly

I hope my post didn't come off as a rather fiery assertion. Sometimes I can be very blunt without minding it so I hope that didn't cause any discomfort.
Tldr
Anyhow, I understand why people give up and I wanted to be able to say that without judgement. I hope it wasn't chilling. I also am annoyed when it's used as a cop out, but I also want to understand cowards so this post is quickly turning into a mess. :sweatsmile:

Anyhow, carry on. It is what it is. :grimacing:
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Oh Min, you needn't ever worry about offending me. If it were to ever occur, albeit quite rare as I deeply value all forms of thought and opinion (and even those which call mine into question), I would approach you in private and try to reconcile any perceived wrongdoing. So, I hope this puts your mind at ease in how you are coming across. I understand your point of view, and I think we share pieces of it, and those we differ on may just be hidden in perceptions.

Feel free to be as blunt as you need to be, and to share your views in response, whether in opposition or in agreement. I enjoy your thoughts more than you likely realize, and I welcome any which would seek to refine mine in the process. Please, be yourself, for you are perfectly wonderful as you are.
 
mintoots said:
But it's never just water is it? ;)
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Oh no - water is only a metaphor

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mintoots said:
You too?!:sweatsmile: Yes, it is used as a cop out. I believe it's never just the phrase but the force behind why we utter it that's critical.
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There are other cliches that carry adjacent truth too - like timing is everything

mintoots said:
I hope my post didn't come off as a rather fiery assertion. Sometimes I can be very blunt without minding it so I hope that didn't cause any discomfort.
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LOL I can be just the same if I get inside my thinking box - and I suspect so does @Anomaly. It doesn't come across from you as fiery assertion, but as someone who knows and expresses their own mind and enjoys discussing and exploring the different perspectives. I like and respect that <333

mintoots said:
Anyhow, carry on. It is what it is. :grimacing:
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:p

 
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