How can I gain an INFJ's forgiveness after fucking up in a major way?

Why are you approaching this as a success/fail thing? Whether you are truly remorseful or not I cannot determine, but to mention it in such terms makes me want to believe that you are treating this as a game. If you truly felt that you've wronged her in some way (and I'd say emotional abuse in the sense that you called her to try and commit suicide is wrong) you would steer clear of her. It sounds as if you want her back in your life for what ever reasons (and I personally believe they are selfish reasons on your part) but you are refusing to acknowledge what you previously did to her.

She made it painfully clear that she does not want you in her life at this moment. If you go through with this you will make it obvious that you do not care about her desires or feelings, and you'll get an even harder metaphoric "INFJ door-slam." This is all about "me, me, me." You need a reality check and to do some real soul-searching as to why you are doing this. You want to know what would be proof that you are becoming healthy in a personal sense, and mature in a relationship sense? If you don't contact her.

And once again, is this worth your schooling experience? Should you go through with this, she may not have a restraining order yet, but it could prove to be grounds for getting one.

Of course you've made it clear that you intend to contact her, and I can only for-see trouble on your part and pain on hers. Hopefully this is something you'll be able to laugh at someday should you carry on.
 
ok... seriously guys... there have been oodles of psychological studies showing that if you tell someone what they're doing, how they're acting, what their strengths/weaknesses are, then they tend to do them more, become more like that, get better/worse at those things, etc. I'm actually kind of surprised loki isn't seething with resentment yet (though, who knows. He may be). Advice is one thing, as is pointing out hidden motives that you think he might have... but it's outrght dangerous to insist to someone that their motives are what you think they are. It's even worse if they grow to believe you, which is what might end up happening in the future if this situation happens the way we all think it will. I think talking to her is as bad of an idea as any of you do... but please be a little gentle with the guy? It's likely not good for him, but it's got to be equally bad for yourself. That is, it lets you say "I told you so" and increases your chances of doing the same thing in the future (boosts your confidence in "knowing" other peoples' motives better than they do, etc), but hides the fact that you exerted some of the psychological pressure that made it happen.
 
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frozen_water said:
careful, guys... there have been oodles of psychological studies showing that if you tell someone what they're doing, how they're acting, what their strengths/weaknesses are, then they tend to do them more, become more like that, get better/worse at those things, etc. I'm actually kind of surprised loki isn't seething with resentment yet (though, who knows. He may be). Advice is one thing, as is pointing out hidden motives that you think he might have... but it's outrght dangerous to insist to someone that their motives are what you think they are. It's even worse if they grow to believe you, which is what might end up happening in the future if this situation happens the way we all think it will. I think talking to her is as bad of an idea as any of you do... but please be a little gentle with the guy?
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Gentle went out the window when he began to effect someone else with this situation. That's a problem. Regardless of type or anything else. Its one thing to drag one's self down. But when you start screw with others then your actions are even more a cause for concern.

Oh and I"m well aware what every we say will make no difference in his actions. We all know you end up doing what you think is best regardless of what others think. That's what people do.
 
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Blind Bandit said:
Yup just like INFJ's don't deal with conflict. So must an NT be right no matter what.
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Such an oversimplification. NTs identify with their competency in much the same way that INFJs identify with their belief systems. To argue a position that differs from an NT's position is to insinuate that their understanding or reasoning for that position are somehow flawed and thus they are incompetent. So it isn't that NT's always have to be right as much as they never want to be wrong.
 
Satya said:
Such an oversimplification. NTs identify with their competency in much the same way that INFJs identify with their belief systems. To argue a position that differs from an NT's position is to insinuate that their understanding or reasoning for that position are somehow flawed and thus they are incompetent. So it isn't that NT's always have to be right as much as they never want to be wrong.
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Splitting hairs.
 
Blind Bandit said:
Gentle went out the window when wanted to effect someone else with this situation. That's a problem. Regardless of type or anything else. Its one thing to drag one's self down. But when you start screw with others then your actions are even more a cause for concern.
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ditto to yourselves. You might not have seen this, because I edited that post back there to include it, but do you think everyone's insistance that he's completely selfish an unhealthy aren't dragging him down as well? Because modern psychologists suggest differently.
 
I think at this point most of us are worrying about the girl who has already suffered because of this situation rather than worrying too much about the OP who insists he's happy and healthy.

Sometimes it's hard to be overly sympathetic. But I can only speak for myself there.
 
aye, sorry about that. That was a little... aggressive of me.

Loki: every fiber in my being says that this situation will be best if you follow everyone else here's advice. However, if not saying what you have to say will only make you regret your decision and believe that things would have been better if you had said it, then by all means go for it. Maybe you'll get lucky and it works out... but if not, at least make sure you learn from it. It dawned on me that your "drive" to take on the challenge probably emerges from your belief that you're under control and ready to move on. The danger in this is that if the situation blows up, you're going to take it a lot harder than you probably think you will, and you could easily end up depressed and suicidal again. So I'd like to add to what I said earlier to say: also be careful with how much of yourself you're investing into success, because the more you invest yourself in success, the more damaging a failure can be.
 
Loki said:
First, one point of clarification: there is no restraining order. The communication rule is strictly a school rule.
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I'm not going to appeal to what she is feeling because it is clear that isn't going to influence you. So I'm going to tell you the exact consequences if you send her that 9 page letter. The school isn't going to care about some technicality that lets you skirt the rule. They will expel you. You will leave them no choice, because not doing so would open them to a massive lawsuit. You may be right. The technicality may exist. But it doesn't matter. They will kick you out. And maybe you could sue to be let back into school. Maybe you will win, maybe you won't. But you will be forever known as the guy who had to sue to get back into school because he was stalking a girl. Reality is irrelevant. Perception is everything. And there is no way for you to send this letter without being perceived by everyone as a stalker. This is the best case scenario. The rest have restraining orders and cops.

So if you want to be expelled, send the letter. Otherwise file it in a drawer somewhere as a reminder of why opportunities are precious.

Also as a note: if you live on campus and you send this letter they will probably escort you off campus, box up your belongs, and mail you your stuff. You may not be allowed to remain on campus to pack up your own belongings. Also, in your case, expulsion may mean a trespassing order against setting foot on campus. Being expelled from university is worse then it sounds.
 
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IndigoSensor said:
Well the I do not see the point of you starting this or deflecting this in the first place. If this blows up in your face then it is your own fault, and you will not get sympathy from anyone here. You are being such a typical undeveloped ENTP it is astounding. Gathering information then rejecting it because you have thought you were right in the first place. Get over your ego, and stay away from this person.
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you know that is not true everyone will gather around him and give him too much sympathy.
 
If I may interject further comment.

I don't think tearing down Loki is going to help the girl he wishes to contact. If she doesn't want to talk to him after he sends it out, she won't, and he'll quit trying once he realizes there's no chance of success. That will be the end of it. She will move on, and he will move on. The point is, it's her decision regardless of what he does or doesn't send. Nothing you say can help her unless she becomes a member here.

On the other hand, we CAN do something for the ENTP that's posting here, try to help him out emotionally any way we can. Instead, what seems to be happening is that many of us are tearing him down and accusing him of things we have no basis for, because of perceiving him in a negative light due to what we know about him (which may well be exaggerated, contain important omissions, etc).

This may make you feel like you defended the "right" side, but in reality you will have achieved nothing, and possibly driven the ENTP further off the precipice, and further away from any positive potential.

All I ask is that you at least attempt to be helpful and considerate rather than accusatory, severe, and reproachful. Because none of us have anything to gain from the latter. We're NFs... shouldn't we be the ones reaching out to and believing in people's better natures?

It seems that everything that can be said, has been said. Perhaps it's time that this thread be closed.
 
frozen_water said:
Advice is one thing, as is pointing out hidden motives that you think he might have... but it's outrght dangerous to insist to someone that their motives are what you think they are. It's even worse if they grow to believe you, which is what might end up happening in the future if this situation happens the way we all think it will. I think talking to her is as bad of an idea as any of you do... but please be a little gentle with the guy?
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I think I agree with you somehow.

frozen_water said:
ditto to yourselves. You might not have seen this, because I edited that post back there to include it, but do you think everyone's insistance that he's completely selfish an unhealthy aren't dragging him down as well? Because modern psychologists suggest differently.
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I do think some more sensitivity is warranted especially given the OP's previous mental state and present attempts to recover. In perspective, it is not like he is planning to batter his victim to death. Some more alternatives to the leave her alone suggestions might also be helpful... though I must confess that I am also in the leave her alone camp.
 
I've read the entire thread.

My ENTP advice is to apologize but keep it brief. 9 pages is not brief. You only read 9 pages of something you want to read or something you're forced to. I'd suggest nothing more than two paragraphs.

Then leave her alone.
 
frozen_water said:
Something that every NT needs to learn is that 99% of the time, "reasonable" is an intuitive judgment call that's so strongly tied to other parts of yourself that it reflects little more than a combination of "how you see this situation" and "how you've seen siituations like this in the past."

Your words are saying what your brain doesn't want to admit.

It sounds like you're doing this for yourself, and I'd be surprised (and feel a little bit sorry for her) if she didn't think so as well. I hope this does work out for both of you... but on the chance that your actions burn everything to the ground in the future, I still suggest you spend a good bit more quality time focusing on your own development as a person, instead.

I won't go so far as to agree with Indigo that you won't get any sympathy from anyone if this goes as badly as everyone thinks it will, though. That's just the ugly side of Fe talking. If you don't think someone has the right to discard your advice, then you weren't really giving them advice at all. Just orders.
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First....take a deep breath....and one more. Time is on your side :)
relax....time is on your side.... Get your letter ready and sit on it for a little while. Take some time for you and get right. You want to be a benefit to someone instead of a brick.
She is an NF not an NT this is a huge difference. Listen..just wait, and if you are trying to prove something...she will run. But good luck if you dont listen. Some people just aren't good for each other...
 
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Loki said:
First, one point of clarification: there is no restraining order. The communication rule is strictly a school rule.
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It may be a rule my friend, but it is also a choice. You need to decide if it is really the best thing to do. In a situation like this, involving her, you need to put her first, you need to consider her feelings first before doing what could totally screw up your friendship altogether.

Loki said:
I see what you all are saying. There's an extremely good chance that you're right. But you must understand--it just isn't my way to give up.
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Ah yes, this is a very strong trait amongst all NTP's. I know its hard to just get up and walk away, but sometimes it really is the best thing to do, I want you to understand that walking away doesn't mean you have given up, I have a feeling she hasn't given up on you either. You need to be tactical about this.

Loki said:
Unfortunately, none of us can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this won't turn out to be a good idea. And as long as there's reasonable doubt, I have to try. Once upon a time, I gave up in what seemed at the time to be impossible odds, and I almost died. Since then, I have never given up, no matter what the odds. I've taken the attitude of "It would be very nice to succeed, but in the end what really matters is knowing that I did everything I could." And ironically, whenever I've gone up impossible odds since then, I have succeeded every single time.
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That's life my friend. To succeed sometimes you have to climb up Mount Everest, but consider this, what if walking away and letting it rest for a while was the solution for success?
And if so, what would of you succeeded in?
Saying sorry? Re-obtaining your friendship? Being forgiven?

What if she already knew you were sorry? What if you never had lost your friendship to begin with? What if she had already forgiven you in her heart?

You need to start asking the questions before conducting any form of action.

Loki said:
Telling me to let sleeping dogs lie is undeniably good advice, and I would be a fool not to take it. Unfortunately, I am a fool (in an ENTP sort of way). Telling me to give up is like telling Dr. Faust he shouldn't make his deal with the devil, and instead resign himself to old age and death. It's just not my way.
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You need to take your hard helmet off mate, and start considering her. You need to put her first before your needs and wants. In a friendship you put the other persons needs before your own and vice versa.
I don't see any form of giving up that needs to take place here. If you want to say sorry, I suggest a simple card with your apologies. You don't need to go into giving a logical explanation because in reality there really is no logical explanation for suicide or self harm, and chances are she already probably understands.

I want you to know that everyone here on the forums that has replied to your posts wants nothing but the best for you, that's why we are here offering advice.
But at the end of the day you have the power of choice, and you have to make the decision but before doing so, think carefully. A friendship can be very a painful thing to lose.
 
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This is an open message to everyone who has posted here:

First and foremost, thank you all for your feedback. I've had trouble keeping abreast of the discussion. I think my lack of input is the root cause of the thread getting a bit derailed, so I apologize for that.

Let me be clear on a few points: There is no restraining order. This girl is in no way shape or form in any sort of physical or emotional danger. The worst case scenario is that she and a few friends read it over and make fun of me for it, then forget about it. Trust me.

I am extending an open invitation to anyone and everyone--please let me know if you know if you would be willing to read the letter and then tell me what you think. Remember that it is only 9 pages now. I promise, the letter and the situation it addresses aren't as catastrophic as you might think. If you have a few minutes to spare and you're concerned, disgusted, or just curious--please, read the letter. I would be eternally grateful for the help.

EDIT: If you can tell me what I should cut from the letter, I would be very grateful.
 
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The INFJ will be thinking of you already. So don't send the letter.

If you give her enough time (and by enough, I mean a very, very long time), she'll come to her own conclusion. I think it best not to influence that decision through any action.

But that's just my take on it.
 
Loki said:
This is an open message to everyone who has posted here:

First and foremost, thank you all for your feedback. I've had trouble keeping abreast of the discussion. I think my lack of input is the root cause of the thread getting a bit derailed, so I apologize for that.

Let me be clear on a few points: There is no restraining order. This girl is in no way shape or form in any sort of physical or emotional danger. The worst case scenario is that she and a few friends read it over and make fun of me for it, then forget about it. Trust me.

I am extending an open invitation to anyone and everyone--please let me know if you know if you would be willing to read the letter and then tell me what you think. Remember that it is only 9 pages now. I promise, the letter and the situation it addresses aren't as catastrophic as you might think. If you have a few minutes to spare and you're concerned, disgusted, or just curious--please, read the letter. I would be eternally grateful for the help.

EDIT: If you can tell me what I should cut from the letter, I would be very grateful.
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I will say this again. I doubt it will help. but here goes anyway.

Stop trying to make this sound logical. Your actions are not logical. And you must stop forcing an issue to prove your right. I know I'm asking you to fight your nature. I don't like doing that but you must also grow. And this a great chance for growth.

You have been given a great insight into this situation. I suggest for any chance of friendship with this girl, you take our advice.
 
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