[INTP] INTP/INFJ - The Golden Pair

MINFJToothFairy said:
Yes I would be interested, but I will have to explain to him that it hurt me and I would have to ask him why he couldn't manage to be honest with me that night. I don't know if it makes sense, if I should just charge it to the INFJ hypersensitivity, but somehow I sensed that he was lying. It was the way his voice trailed off or maybe it was because he couldn't bear to keep telling me something painful. Or maybe I'm just wrong because INFJs can get these things wrong so astoundingly.

In any case, him as a person is very complex. At first, I just thought his logic was too mundane and that he'd never be my type but as we spent more time together, I learned that there were emotional depths to him that I grew to appreciate. When he became emotionally honest with me, I appreciated it and I just wanted to be there for him since then, constantly. I think that's when I grew to see him as more than just a friend.

I have been changing our norms, trying to stick within group socializations only. I don't ignore him altogether because all of our friends have been so used to second guessing whatever is going on with us, I just don't want to involve other people in the mess. It's good that it's just the two of us who understand the issue. It's hard because he's using this to "work through progress" as you said. I believe this is his point about not giving up our friendship. He is convinced that our "bestfriend connection" doesn't come around so often so while he is giving me space, allowing me to slip out of dinners and movie nights with him, he is determined to talk to me when we're in a social setting. He tries hard to make me laugh. Do stupid comic antics and he's content when I just honor it for the sake of everybody else's discomfort. I would appreciate it if he would stop telling me things about his life anymore but he refuses to stop doing that on the grounds of sticking by keeping our friendship.

To be honest, I no longer know if he's understating my confession or if he's just ignoring it rather than confronting it. He gets distressed whenever I am too distanced and I notice how this affects everybody else in our circle so I don't push it out too much.

I just really wish I could be over this soon, though.
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You have to give up power to get power

As ironic as it seems, you’re in the driver seat on this one if you keep quiet

On the surface, you wanted him to escalate things, and now if you stay quiet, his only option is to...

Escalate things

Well played
 
ClevelandINTP said:
Just being positive here is all. Not saying to burn bridges, “let it burn” means something very very different, man

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=let+it+burn&amp=true

Being quiet to protect yourself and let things sort out while keeping the possibility of interest open is not burning a bridge

Don’t get it tangled and twisted, homie
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Mostly everything you say purposefully has multiple meanings, according to you, so no matter how I interpret it I can end up wrong, according to you.
It's a sort of verbal entrapment and it's a dishonest way of communicating.
Not my fault, homie.
 
Yeah, I sit here all day and think of multiple ways to say things and then pick the one I actually don’t mean and post that

You could just say sorry I misunderstood because either I don’t trust your character or never heard that phrase in that context before (it’s pretty common in my experience)
 
ClevelandINTP said:
Yeah, I sit here all day and think of multiple ways to say things and then pick the one I actually don’t mean and post that

You could just say sorry I misunderstood because either I don’t trust your character or never heard that phrase in that context before (it’s pretty common in my experience)
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Yea I could but I have no reason to, given your overall behavior.
Sorry I guessed wrong and instead of politely correcting me you made it into a thing.
 
ClevelandINTP said:
You have to give up power to get power

As ironic as it seems, you’re in the driver seat on this one if you keep quiet

On the surface, you wanted him to escalate things, and now if you stay quiet, his only option is to...

Escalate things

Well played
Click to expand...


Actually the only thing I want is for us to be true to ourselves. As I am true to my pain, so should he be true to his happiness whether or not that still includes me. However if his happiness of choice includes my pain then it simply isn't sustainable. I also wouldn't be happy about him choosing our friendship at the expense of his happiness so that's not an option either. Whichever way I look at it, for now, our friendship has come to a pitstop if not an end. Maybe I will get better. Maybe time will come when I won't care whether he has found the love of his life and I'd still manage to be his friend but only time will tell. For now, this silence is our only option.
 
sassafras said:
I don't know about INFJ vs. INTP or any of that jazz. I've sort of abandoned typology and its generalizations. But from what you've described here, it sounds like this person was using you. Maybe not consciously, but it seems like they enjoyed the validation you provided without having to commit to anything. I suspect the age difference between you might be a consideration, but this is just going off what you've shared.
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I really doubt that this is the case. Especially the part about age/success being intimidating. I've never met a man who thinks that way.
 
Reason said:
I really doubt that this is the case. Especially the part about age/success being intimidating. I've never met a man who thinks that way.
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As an INFJ who tends to be overly sacrificial, I have in all fairness felt taken cared of within our symbiosis. He may have fed off on me in terms of the validation he needed but he always tried to return to me what I tried to give to him. For the people around me, it's easy to interpret that he's gaining more from this because they know me to be more giving and generous but to me, of all people I've ever really given much to, he's the only one who went an extra mile to watch out for my back. He is fiercely loyal and protective so for that, I wouldn't want to make it sound like he operationally used me. However, given the overflow of his passion and his tendency to get ahead of himself, at times it was exhausting and in which times I felt used. If I do however carefully re evaluate, it was my choice to give too much. He used to constantly remind me to stay within my head if it made me feel better. The reason I liked our symbiosis was because there was always a good balance and he gave support when it was necessary. I think this is the reason why the loss of the friendship hurts us both more than the possibility of romance being there or not. To me, it's just not healthy to have this level of symbiosis however when he wants to pursue someone else. Hence, the situation.
 
Reason said:
I really doubt that this is the case. Especially the part about age/success being intimidating. I've never met a man who thinks that way.
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I don't know for certain if there's a connection between this guy's odd behaviour and this one potential contributing factor. I didn't see mention of this and immediately draw a line from point a to point b. Sometimes what we pick up and choose to share as talking points of a situation that requires more holistic reasoning are the remnants of our intuition, and this was what my intuition flagged for me. I didn't realize I was bringing in you, the men you know, or men in general into my assessment.

Rest assured, I don't think all men are intimidated by success or age, but this one... there's definitely something holding him back and individuals have all sorts of hang ups. Whatever his reasons, I very much doubt a romantic relationship has never occurred to this man given the connection and physical affection described. It's certainly deeper than friendship and both men and women can be guilty of this can't-shit-but-can't-get-off-the-pot behaviour. Generally speaking, we behave this way when we enjoy the ego fill of such a relationship while also enjoying the benefit of keeping our options open.
 
sassafras said:
I don't know for certain if there's a connection between this guy's odd behaviour and this one potential contributing factor. I didn't see mention of this and immediately draw a line from point a to point b. Sometimes what we pick up and choose to share as talking points of a situation that requires more holistic reasoning are the remnants of our intuition, and this was what my intuition flagged for me. I didn't realize I was bringing in you, the men you know, or men in general into my assessment.

Rest assured, I don't think all men are intimidated by success or age, but this one... there's definitely something holding him back and individuals have all sorts of hang ups. Whatever his reasons, I very much doubt a romantic relationship has never occurred to this man given the connection and physical affection described. It's certainly deeper than friendship and both men and women can be guilty of this can't-shit-but-can't-get-off-the-pot behaviour. Generally speaking, we behave this way when we enjoy the ego fill of such a relationship while also enjoying the benefit of keeping our options open.
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Hahahaha this. This is gold. It puts me in perspective. Thank you.
 
General question: if two people are in a relationship and one is getting more out of the relationship than the other, is the other being used?

Personally, I think that’s subjective. And, if one goes along with it, then it’s hard for the “user” to be at-fault so-to-speak. Where is the line drawn on personal happiness

After things are expressed and expectations are known, then it’s different. Even then, it’s hard to say when it becomes “abuse”
 
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ClevelandINTP said:
General question: if two people are in a relationship and one is getting more out of the relationship than the other, is the other being used?

Personally, I think that’s subjective. And, if one goes along with it, then it’s hard for the “user” to be at-fault so-to-speak

After things are expressed and expectations are known, then it’s different
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It's ok if somebody is getting more, temporarily.
Stuff takes time.
 
ClevelandINTP said:
General question: if two people are in a relationship and one is getting more out of the relationship than the other, is the other being used?

Personally, I think that’s subjective. And, if one goes along with it, then it’s hard for the “user” to be at-fault so-to-speak

After things are expressed and expectations are known, then it’s different
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It's a tricky question.

I'd like to once again preface to say that few people are sociopaths who consciously and deliberately try to bring about an imbalance in a relationship. Most people are driven by self-interests and subconscious desires that manifest as a pattern of behavior rather than something they would list under their 'daily goals.' They sometimes don't realize they're doing what they're doing or what it means or how it can affect others. They only see their side of the story. Think of people who are described as enablers. The noun implies a certain amount of power in facilitating bad habits in others, but most of the time, the individual has the best of intentions and they don't realize they're doing more harm than good. The term 'used' or 'user' isn't meant to label or directly assign fault. It's meant to describe the underlying dynamics of a relationship.

Most people, when they get close to someone, assume they're getting involved in something that is mutually beneficial and give-and-take. Few people consciously walk into a relationship where they know they're gonna get less out of what they put in...
 
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@MINFJToothFairy, I'm coming late to the conversation, but wanted to say that my experience with my INTP friend-lover-husband was super intense for the first several years, where neither of us had ever had the experience of being with someone who could open the door to our soul before, so we assumed we must be soulmates and got married. We were together for 22 years. At the end he basically just stopped talking to me for several months, shut me out, and then told me he wanted to "separate". It became clear very quickly that he wasn't interested in resolving anything with me, so we agreed to divorce, and yes, he got a resounding doorslam from me.

I think now that my doorslam was essential to our being able to continue to function, because when you connect with someone's soul that deeply, you can't turn off the awareness of them or their feelings unless you doorslam. It's self-protective. He seems to have done the same to me, though INTPs don't doorslam, right? So I think he just shuts himself down and turns himself off when we must interact. Because how else could he otherwise escape his awareness of me and how I am like a mirror reflecting back the image of himself from the deep darkness and pain he inflicted on me.

Anyway, I am *DONE* with Ts as romantic or life partners. (Sorry, Ts.) Whenever we had conflict, which as you can imagine, wasn't something we allowed ourselves to have very much of, it always sort of boiled down to his T against my F and vice versa, and we even talked about it that way. He just could not make space for my F, and for years he tried to rationalize me out of my feelings. It was very hurtful even if he didn't mean it to be. And the way he left the relationship was incredibly insensitive and cowardly.

So no, I do not think INTP/INFJ is the golden pairing. Though it surely felt that way when we were 15.

That said, my INTP endured a lot of emotional (and likely physical) trauma in childhood and I have often thought that he's just totally emotionally stunted because of that. He acts like an arrogant, self-centered 14yo. He never responds to my texts or emails if he can avoid it - and all I am communicating about is purely factual, nonemotional kid logistics. (I know how this works. No F means more of a chance he will actually accept what I am saying without discounting it.)

Now that I have met a couple of other people who have been able or seemed likely to open the door to my soul, even though they are not romantic partners, I know for sure that it's not just a once-in-a-lifetime thing, which is a great relief. The second person it happened with was an INFJ male, and he said he'd never felt that way with anyone but me. I had with my ex, but I kept that to myself. ;-) It has also come close with an INTJ (sorry, T - not for me) and an ENFP (married, so nope). But that allows me to be hopeful.

And honestly, the magic was gone after the first two or three years. By that time, he was already cheating on me. I don't know if that is rare or common for INTPs. Our marriage ended because deep down he was in love with another person - an xNTP. She can have him. I think they work because they are emotionally deficient in the same ways. Again, I'm not sure if that is from their T or from their childhood trauma (which she also has her share of).

So do with that what you will. I'm sorry your relationship didn't work out. It is so sad when it doesn't work out for INFJs; there is so much pain and suffering on our side. I wish you a nice, supportive INFJ or ENFP prospect in short order. I wish myself the same...
 
This will always then be an interesting push and pull. When do enablers draw the line? In the case of the INFJ that thrives on supporting others and the INTP that justifies most open ended actions with a "to each his own responsibility" attitude, it's easy for a relationship between both to get imbalanced.

I'm learning that it's important to recognize these abuse-enabling patterns early on and to correct immediately. In our case, I think I let it happen because I was always waiting for him to say something that would elevate our connection. Instead, he went off to categorize our connection as best friendship and sought someone else. I wouldn't have minded continuing to give the support I gave if he didn't mean that much to me, but he does so in our case, the lines need to be redrawn.

@sassafras thank you for the counseling. It is really helping me move on.

@worthy hello, it is never to late to join a conversation, I believe. I think I see what your husband might be going with. The INTP of my affection and I used to discuss these things and he would tell me how he abhors feeling manipulated because of feelings, especially the feelings of someone he cares about. For example, he would hate to reply to somebody's message especially somebody who he knows will blow an emotional out of proportion reaction based all on a text. I think he thrives in the language of knowledge and ideas and would much rather prefer in these comfortable zones than to have to deal with, well emotional shit especially shit not his own. Yet it becomes conflicting for him because when he cares for other people then their feelings also matter to him so he is really in tight spot in that.

He and I now, I think are going down this path because his distress is not getting anyway less diffused. I have consciously acted out of emotions to (1) instill some hate in him for me so he would consciously leave me alone and I can be left to move on at peace, (2) because it hurts to continue the norms that proceed to endear him further to me. I try not to be emotional and I still respond to him when I consider his antics to be within the non-abusive zone.

Ironically, I think what kept him from elevating our relationship is that he knew I had the tendency to be manipulative using emotions or at least this was how he interpreted it to be. I think he recognized my emotional patterns and did not want to take the brunt of it, hence the justification to keep us as friends and not more. He also has a lot of trauma both from childhood and past relationships and so do I. I think we both don't want to go down that track again.

So really it's funny that in the distance I'm setting, I seem to be the more emotional one for now. Well, we're both emotional pretending we're not. In any case, it makes us both annoying and disappointing for now. It makes me want to cry ceasefire but I have to keep working on re establishing these new norms because I am not loving him any less yet even with all this drama. Essentially, I think he is reacting like a toddler whose candy has been taken away from him and is now blaming me, the parent, for putting him in discomfort. But I believe this is necessary for both of us no matter how whiny we both can get.
 
Also I think discussions and conversations with INTPs are never a walk in the park. There are a lot of ideas springing from everywhere, in patterns hardly easily identifiable, and then there's a constant stream of presumptions as though it is expected of the other half of the conversation to already understand what is being said despite all of it still being a mess, and really difficult to non INTPs to get. We INFJs prefer to sort things out and organize them in clear terms. In my experience, he tended to blurt it all out and just say "but you already get it" and I would have to insist how he still needs to communicate it clearly. He gets lazy about this stuff whereas I think it's absolutely essential. I needed to constantly remind him that there are things where we have to be absolutely clear about.
 
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