[INTP] INTP/INFJ - The Golden Pair

My INTP ex spent our whole relationship telling me that I was a poor communicator and that was why he could not respond to my needs. I believe him. And then I got divorced, and I remember apologizing to friends for my poor communication, and they were incredulous. They were like, you are one of the clearest communicators we have ever met. And slowly it dawned on me that the problem was NOT with my communication. It was with my ex.

I don't think I ever intentionally manipulated him with my feelings. If I did, it was not a strategy. He would ask for my logic, and I would explain that my reasoning for something was based on my intuition, or my emotions, or my gut feeling, or similar, and he'd usually entirely discount it, or make a big deal out of how he didn't agree but he would go along with it anyway, and I'd feel not-heard and not-validated and not-understood. Wash, rinse, repeat for 20+ years.
 
worthy said:
My INTP ex spent our whole relationship telling me that I was a poor communicator and that was why he could not respond to my needs. I believe him. And then I got divorced, and I remember apologizing to friends for my poor communication, and they were incredulous. They were like, you are one of the clearest communicators we have ever met. And slowly it dawned on me that the problem was NOT with my communication. It was with my ex.

I don't think I ever intentionally manipulated him with my feelings. If I did, it was not a strategy. He would ask for my logic, and I would explain that my reasoning for something was based on my intuition, or my emotions, or my gut feeling, or similar, and he'd usually entirely discount it, or make a big deal out of how he didn't agree but he would go along with it anyway, and I'd feel not-heard and not-validated and not-understood. Wash, rinse, repeat for 20+ years.
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That does sound very toxic. It was good that you were able to end it. I guess it's never just our MBTIs that put relationships on the rocks. Here's to you and me moving forward. You know, self love is very liberating? The ex I had before was an ENTJ and our relationship was so much more different, but it had to end because it made me feel empty than loved. I think we have every right to walk out of something that no longer validates us, regardless of MBTI.
 
worthy said:
@MINFJToothFairy, I'm coming late to the conversation, but wanted to say that my experience with my INTP friend-lover-husband was super intense for the first several years, where neither of us had ever had the experience of being with someone who could open the door to our soul before, so we assumed we must be soulmates and got married. We were together for 22 years. At the end he basically just stopped talking to me for several months, shut me out, and then told me he wanted to "separate". It became clear very quickly that he wasn't interested in resolving anything with me, so we agreed to divorce, and yes, he got a resounding doorslam from me.

I think now that my doorslam was essential to our being able to continue to function, because when you connect with someone's soul that deeply, you can't turn off the awareness of them or their feelings unless you doorslam. It's self-protective. He seems to have done the same to me, though INTPs don't doorslam, right? So I think he just shuts himself down and turns himself off when we must interact. Because how else could he otherwise escape his awareness of me and how I am like a mirror reflecting back the image of himself from the deep darkness and pain he inflicted on me.

Anyway, I am *DONE* with Ts as romantic or life partners. (Sorry, Ts.) Whenever we had conflict, which as you can imagine, wasn't something we allowed ourselves to have very much of, it always sort of boiled down to his T against my F and vice versa, and we even talked about it that way. He just could not make space for my F, and for years he tried to rationalize me out of my feelings. It was very hurtful even if he didn't mean it to be. And the way he left the relationship was incredibly insensitive and cowardly.

So no, I do not think INTP/INFJ is the golden pairing. Though it surely felt that way when we were 15.

That said, my INTP endured a lot of emotional (and likely physical) trauma in childhood and I have often thought that he's just totally emotionally stunted because of that. He acts like an arrogant, self-centered 14yo. He never responds to my texts or emails if he can avoid it - and all I am communicating about is purely factual, nonemotional kid logistics. (I know how this works. No F means more of a chance he will actually accept what I am saying without discounting it.)

Now that I have met a couple of other people who have been able or seemed likely to open the door to my soul, even though they are not romantic partners, I know for sure that it's not just a once-in-a-lifetime thing, which is a great relief. The second person it happened with was an INFJ male, and he said he'd never felt that way with anyone but me. I had with my ex, but I kept that to myself. ;-) It has also come close with an INTJ (sorry, T - not for me) and an ENFP (married, so nope). But that allows me to be hopeful.

And honestly, the magic was gone after the first two or three years. By that time, he was already cheating on me. I don't know if that is rare or common for INTPs. Our marriage ended because deep down he was in love with another person - an xNTP. She can have him. I think they work because they are emotionally deficient in the same ways. Again, I'm not sure if that is from their T or from their childhood trauma (which she also has her share of).

So do with that what you will. I'm sorry your relationship didn't work out. It is so sad when it doesn't work out for INFJs; there is so much pain and suffering on our side. I wish you a nice, supportive INFJ or ENFP prospect in short order. I wish myself the same...
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Fs are a lot of work for us. It is not our comfortable space, but we can be really good at it if we’re focused

We need a lot of space, be playful and feed the knowledge tank. We get bored easily. Our obsessive love is a little tricky at first because we get really into things and we go hard and deep. People who feel that really get our gift of love. It does set us up later though because then people think that kind of love is sustainable and you used to do this and that. Well, sorry it’s just not possible to do that forever and what are you doing now other than being yourself to re-attract our interest? Plus, after the honeymoon so-to-speak, we need to focus on other life goals. Our pursuit of things doesn’t just stop and complete focus can’t be on our partners all of the time

Also, I feel kind of sad when people (myself included) resort to excluding other people because we don’t want to be pushed outside of a comfort zone

So by default ENFPs become the type people gravitate to. Like all types. I think it’s funny that INFJs gravitate to ENFPs though. ENFPs tend to be made for relationships because they are fun, bold, easy to work with and up for anything. They also understand how to reciprocate feelings. It’s like here’s this human who just gets humans and makes me feel connected to things

Only catch with ENFPs is they are so flighty. They are flirty and open to experience. It’s almost like they’d treat anyone that way. No one is special so to speak. I’d wager ENFPs are more likely to cheat than most other types. Except maybe ENTP

Maybe the dynamic is different when it’s ENFP men and INFJ women

Ironically, I am with an ENFP now after a INFJ relationship. It’s been refreshing because they don’t hit the same notes. Plus, Ne makes me so comfortable to be around like I can actually be myself
 
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MINFJToothFairy said:
Also I think discussions and conversations with INTPs are never a walk in the park. There are a lot of ideas springing from everywhere, in patterns hardly easily identifiable, and then there's a constant stream of presumptions as though it is expected of the other half of the conversation to already understand what is being said despite all of it still being a mess, and really difficult to non INTPs to get. We INFJs prefer to sort things out and organize them in clear terms. In my experience, he tended to blurt it all out and just say "but you already get it" and I would have to insist how he still needs to communicate it clearly. He gets lazy about this stuff whereas I think it's absolutely essential. I needed to constantly remind him that there are things where we have to be absolutely clear about.
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Yeah, I’ve noticed INFJs have a hard time with our Ne. ENFPs sort of love it, play with it and do the same

Honestly, the ENFP I’m with has told me I’m one of the few people that just get her and thrive in her Ne and don’t take offense to it. Even we get lost in it sometimes, and we have to take a break and say the leaps we took to get here

I think a lot of people just can’t handle the idea-piñata Ne is or misunderstand it

INFJs seem to put the details as critical in a relationship whereas INTPs don’t. We put the critical in freedom. This guy could do a better job of explaining things thoroughly though. I feel like we are really good at that and an INFJ would like that
 
MINFJToothFairy said:
That does sound very toxic. It was good that you were able to end it. I guess it's never just our MBTIs that put relationships on the rocks. Here's to you and me moving forward. You know, self love is very liberating? The ex I had before was an ENTJ and our relationship was so much more different, but it had to end because it made me feel empty than loved. I think we have every right to walk out of something that no longer validates us, regardless of MBTI.
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True... You can find "fucked up" in all 16 flavors.
 
Why do INTPs tend to seek out the attention of people close to them, though? In my case, it's what he does that i'm back to square one. It's really difficult each time.
 
ClevelandINTP said:
Can you elaborate? I’m not sure I understand
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Honestly I don't know whether this is still an INTP thing or just contextual for us, but I am astounded that he is not giving up on fighting for my attention. Maybe not my attention but I can feel him hovering over me, watching my every move, noting when i'm sad, like I'm a specimen or something. Maybe i'm too full of myself or maybe it's an INFJ sensing thing, but he really is everywhere. Yesterday my computer almost broke and although I didn't ask for his help, he was eager to check it. He noted my every progress on the work I've done as though he's been watching me. I know that INTPs don't give a fudge over things that are irrelevant to them and having been rejected, I would think I fell in that category. Sometimes I wonder whether I should just let him in again and just constantly joke about his rejection. Win-win for all of us except my bruised heart.
 
worthy said:
My INTP ex spent our whole relationship telling me that I was a poor communicator and that was why he could not respond to my needs. I believe him. And then I got divorced, and I remember apologizing to friends for my poor communication, and they were incredulous. They were like, you are one of the clearest communicators we have ever met. And slowly it dawned on me that the problem was NOT with my communication. It was with my ex.

I don't think I ever intentionally manipulated him with my feelings. If I did, it was not a strategy. He would ask for my logic, and I would explain that my reasoning for something was based on my intuition, or my emotions, or my gut feeling, or similar, and he'd usually entirely discount it, or make a big deal out of how he didn't agree but he would go along with it anyway, and I'd feel not-heard and not-validated and not-understood. Wash, rinse, repeat for 20+ years.
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MINFJToothFairy said:
That does sound very toxic. It was good that you were able to end it. I guess it's never just our MBTIs that put relationships on the rocks. Here's to you and me moving forward. You know, self love is very liberating? The ex I had before was an ENTJ and our relationship was so much more different, but it had to end because it made me feel empty than loved. I think we have every right to walk out of something that no longer validates us, regardless of MBTI.
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noisebloom said:
True... You can find "fucked up" in all 16 flavors.
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For sure. @worthy, my ex would do the exact same thing. If I couldn't explain my logic flawlessly, he would just dismiss me. Like your ex, he would also blame me for all our problems. He was an INTP, and I don't think that had anything to do with it. After all, look at the INTPs on this forum. Infinite Dreams, Noisebloom or Reason would never act like that. Instead they're deep, considerate thinkers. On cocaine. INTP: Serious thinking. Next moment: LUUULLL MEMES. Personally I love that about them. Ne-randomness-ahoy. I can imagine it feels a bit weird for Ni users, though.

@MINFJToothFairy It's very easy (and normal, I think) to get hung up on the 'why' of a relationship/close friendship ending. You're still invested in him, you care a great deal about him, you want to know why so maybe the situation can still be salvaged or changed. You're hurting, you're grieving the 'almost' you had. The why, the reasons for him not wanting anything more than friendship, they're irrelevant right now. You taking care of you is what matters. Take a step back and grief. Tell him you're hurting and need time. This can take a couple of weeks or months. That's okay! Let it. Only once you've totally accepted that there will never be a relationship between you two, you can become friends again. Or maybe not, but you can decide that then, with a clear heart, and a clear mind. Good luck.
 
MINFJToothFairy said:
Honestly I don't know whether this is still an INTP thing or just contextual for us, but I am astounded that he is not giving up on fighting for my attention. Maybe not my attention but I can feel him hovering over me, watching my every move, noting when i'm sad, like I'm a specimen or something. Maybe i'm too full of myself or maybe it's an INFJ sensing thing, but he really is everywhere. Yesterday my computer almost broke and although I didn't ask for his help, he was eager to check it. He noted my every progress on the work I've done as though he's been watching me. I know that INTPs don't give a fudge over things that are irrelevant to them and having been rejected, I would think I fell in that category. Sometimes I wonder whether I should just let him in again and just constantly joke about his rejection. Win-win for all of us except my bruised heart.
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It's your prerogative whether you want to cut this short and let him back in, but remember: everything is a lesson. For a guy who is apparently observing you as if you were a specimen, consider that the lesson might be that if you get mad, all he has to do is give you a bit of softer attention and you're willing to settle for less. You suggested this yourself: if it means peace, you're happy to accept things as they are and merely joke about the rejection while pretending everything is fine; what you'd really feel inside or what you need to make yourself feel better isn't as important as this guy getting his reward for treating you softer and getting things back to normal as quickly as its comfortable for him.

For you, you'll learn your pain and heartbreak are second to everyone and everything else. That sets a dangerous precedent; if you've gone through this situation once and accepted it as it was, you can endure another situation like this again. You can get comfortable with it. Maybe even endure worse. This is how the slippery slope into abusive cycles begin. You're building boundaries right now. You're building the foundations for your self-esteem and your future relationships by prioritizing your needs first. Where you put boundaries and how well you stick to them is of paramount importance. You can't help anyone if you're not being honest about what you need and taking care of yourself first.

And it's going to be uncomfortable. Everyone talks about setting boundaries like its the easiest thing in the world but it's not. It's like going on a diet. You're setting new standards for yourself and that means you have to actively choose new behaviors that support your new standard of living and resist the comfort of old habits. It's hard, it'll take a lot out of you, but you suffer enough for other people. For once, bleed a little for yourself.

Don't make this decision lightly. You're not hurting him by stepping back. You're healing you. You need that space to get your head back on straight. I don't think that should be negotiable. Communicate to him clearly that you need some space and that you'll come back when you're ready. But... keep it simple and keep it short. I suspect he may want to turn it into a philosophical discussion and your feelings are still too soft to support your convictions. See how he reacts. See how he respects the boundaries you set in place and make note of them. But do set boundaries and do take the space. At the end of the day, every time you resist, your confidence will grow a little more.
 
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Lady Jolanda said:
On cocaine. INTP: Serious thinking. Next moment: LUUULLL MEMES. Personally I love that about them. Ne-randomness-ahoy. I can imagine it feels a bit weird for Ni users, though.
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I'm pretty crazy on the forum, but in real life, I'm less random and spontaneous (unless I'm drunk). I think my Ne is working in both cases, but my Fe prevents me from putting myself out there in front of people.

I also don't feel like most of my meme posts are representative of Ne at work. I'm just typing in a reaction on Giphy and choosing an option, usually.

Ne is when I'm having a conversation with someone and the light bulb turns on in a weird way. It's helpful and refreshing - a reminder that I'm human, as well...
 
noisebloom said:
I'm pretty crazy on the forum, but in real life, I'm less random and spontaneous (unless I'm drunk). I think my Ne is working in both cases, but my Fe prevents me from putting myself out there in front of people.

I also don't feel like most of my meme posts are representative of Ne at work. I'm just typing in a reaction on Giphy and choosing an option, usually.

Ne is when I'm having a conversation with someone and the light bulb turns on in a weird way. It's helpful and refreshing - a reminder that I'm human, as well...
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Ne is everything!
 
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