Why Charity Doesn't Work

[Raccoon Love]

It's argued that the reason the U.S. is the richest country (and we folks rich enough to have access to computers enjoy the benefits of being in places where that's possible) is due to the things our ancestors did (slavery, colonialism, etc). But I guess it's easier to argue that our richness is due to current international trade rules. So the idea is we're benefitting so hugely (I mean since there's such a big inequality in survival, lifestyle, etc), so we have some responsibility to do something about it.

It's nice you're asking about it Raccoon!

So? What if our ancestors might have done incorrect that's not our fault, that's the past, we are not those people, we are different individuals. sure we can aid them but we are not aiding them. What we will have to do is change the system, this aiding is not helping them in any way. We are hurting this people. Look at Japan, bombed by 2 ATOMIC bombs, what did they did? They moved on! The great Japanese miracle if you might perhaps say so if a country is able to go on and reestablished itself after 2 atomic bombs then why can't Africa forget the past, and move on? because of the system, this people are under corrupt governments and much ignorance about the current matters of the world. We need to teach and educate not simply aid. Give a man a fish, he would eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish you will feed him for life, simple as that.

 

[myst]

So you're telling me that we'd all be better off if no one was in poverty? I don't believe it. We'd all have a lot less.

Less materialistically i guess... a while ago I read some psychological studies showing wealth above the level needed for physical security/health/food, etc doesn't increase people's happiness much. It must depend on the person. But I think it'd be possible for people to be mentally better off if the world treated each other humanely.

 

[BenW]

Bah, where did I allude to evil over lords?

I'm just stating a fact. Yeah, people want people to buy things from them, but we also have what we have because we are poor. There is a limited number of wealth in the world (sure the values change, but there is only so much stuff). If one person gets more, some one else has to get less. So you're telling me that we'd all be better off if no one was in poverty? I don't believe it. We'd all have a lot less.

...

How? The poor have to get their wealth from somewhere. Capital is limited.

This is a complete fallacy.
Wealth is created all the time.

One of the most pure examples I can think of is software.
Software is created out of thin air from absolutely nothing but man hours.
Who "loses" wealth when I code an in-demand piece of software?

When the people on the bottom have more money to spend, the people at the top will be able to sell more things.

Capitalism requires poor due to fluctuating markets. If the market is doing well, it needs a source of people to pull in to the work force, but once the market starts doing poor again, it needs a source of people to flush back into unemployment. There has to be usable people for the markets to fluctuate. If everyone had a job, industries wouldn't have the freedom to expand at the rates they currently enjoy. We need trashable workers who will work for cheap.

I'm really having trouble trying to understand what you're saying here.

Somebody having a job doesn't magically make them unable to take another job instead, or shit, even taken on another job in addition.
Companies looking for labor will generally go for the cheapest source, obviously this one is a no brainier.
Companies do not "need" unemployed or even impoverished people to exist in order to profit from labor exchange. It's simply cheaper for them if it's possible.
Giving these people jobs and allowing them to contribute to the economy is then even MORE profitable for them.

For haves to exist, there has to be have-nots.

Still just as meaningless as the first time you said it.

 

[Raccoon Love]

People typically care about the things close to them, I care about my family more than the family of some man in Africa. I care about you more than some woman from Bangladesh, it only makes sense. To care about the planet is truly a tremendous and often times painful task. It's not shocking that apathy has arisen to combat this.

I don't necessarily agree that democracy is the way to go, especially the faux-democracy the U.S. has. (we really have a constitutional republic, and the difference matters) Many European nations have had GREAT monarchs and history proves this. It does run in the family (typically, I remember some nations randomly picked the leaders of the country) and that's where the problem arise, not from the individuals lack of checks and balances.

I'm not saying our democracy is our way to go, but I am saying that there needs to be control so that everything does not go out of hand, we need to make sure everything i being done careful and systematically as this decisions affect the countries overall state in general.

If you are homeless on the street and have been for the last 10 years, I doubt the problems of wall street or the middle class asian american are going to matter to you. We have to think about priority. Many of the things we NEED to happen for the world to be a better place just don't have a high priority.

Certainly stopping the spread of AIDS is an important global issues, we need to spread awareness, or do we perhaps want a new version of AIDS to develop, mutation is certainly possible, if we don't spread sexual education and awareness, we will just keep getting this new diseases, also to think that millions of people are being massacre in a country its just not morally right to me and I feel it is important to do something about it, I put myself in the shoes of the African.

What religious customs in particularly are you talking about?

Things such as sacrificing of children, killing others for religious purposes, many of this countries still follow their religion text by text, we need to move on, living life as people lived 2000 years ago is not aiding, which is why perhaps many of this countries have fallen behind.

 

[myst]

So? What if our ancestors might have done incorrect that's not our fault, that's the past, we are not those people, we are different individuals.

Well, if we have wealth because our ancestors stole it from Africa, and if that's the reason Africa is poor, it seems like we have responsibility to give it back somehow. Some historians and philosophers say that. I agree, just giving aid is too simple though. It's complicated to figure out how to do it (but that's not an excuse not to keep trying).

Look at Japan, bombed by 2 ATOMIC bombs, what did they did? They moved on! The great Japanese miracle if you might perhaps say so if a country is able to go on and reestablished itself after 2 atomic bombs then why can't Africa forget the past, and move on?

It could be that it's harder to recover from long term colonialism and slavery than from atomic bombs. Could be a lot of reasons.

because of the system, this people are under corrupt governments and much ignorance about the current matters of the world.

Some academics say the reason the corrupt government's leaders (thugs) stay in power is because rich countries give the thugs money for whatever natural resources are in the country. The thugs use the money to buy guns and soldiers to stay in power. The rich countries started doing this because it was easier than cleaning up the political chaos the rich countries left after colonialism.

We need to teach and educate not simply aid. Give a man a fish, he would eat for a day. Teach a man how to fish you will feed him for life, simple as that.

Yes... I didn't mean to sound like I meant just handing over aid.

 

[Reon]

People typically care about the things close to them, I care about my family more than the family of some man in Africa. I care about you more than some woman from Bangladesh, it only makes sense. To care about the planet is truly a tremendous and often times painful task. It's not shocking that apathy has arisen to combat this.

I don't necessarily agree that democracy is the way to go, especially the faux-democracy the U.S. has. (we really have a constitutional republic, and the difference matters) Many European nations have had GREAT monarchs and history proves this. It does run in the family (typically, I remember some nations randomly picked the leaders of the country) and that's where the problem arise, not from the individuals lack of checks and balances.

I'm not saying our democracy is our way to go, but I am saying that there needs to be control so that everything does not go out of hand, we need to make sure everything i being done careful and systematically as this decisions affect the countries overall state in general.

If you are homeless on the street and have been for the last 10 years, I doubt the problems of wall street or the middle class asian american are going to matter to you. We have to think about priority. Many of the things we NEED to happen for the world to be a better place just don't have a high priority.

Certainly stopping the spread of AIDS is an important global issues, we need to spread awareness, or do we perhaps want a new version of AIDS to develop, mutation is certainly possible, if we don't spread sexual education and awareness, we will just keep getting this new diseases, also to think that millions of people are being massacre in a country its just not morally right to me and I feel it is important to do something about it, I put myself in the shoes of the African.

What religious customs in particularly are you talking about?

Things such as sacrificing of children, killing others for religious purposes, many of this countries still follow their religion text by text, we need to move on, living life as people lived 2000 years ago is not aiding, which is why perhaps many of this countries have fallen behind.

Explain how AIDS affects me now? Idealistically this is all great and I really want this to happen, but realistically you have to think that most people aren't going to follow through with this through the kindness of their hearts.

BenW: Not my argument, but software is built on hardware. Better hardware = better and more software. Your argument kinda sounds like my imagination, so to speak. edit (b/c it was unclear) by itself it has no intrinsic value but can make something (like art or this post) that can be sold

 

[BenW]

BenW: Not my argument, but software is built on hardware. Better hardware = better and more software. Your argument kinda sounds like my imagination, so to speak.

Relation to the creation of software?
And...
Having more powerful hardware doesn't magically give you better OR more software.
You need people to create/optimize it.

The point of using software as an example is to cut out natural resource (at least, the more overtly obvious ones), when can be slightly confusing to the argument.
Software is created from nothing but time.

 

[myst]

...This is a complete fallacy.
Wealth is created all the time.

One of the most pure examples I can think of is software.
Software is created out of thin air from absolutely nothing but man hours.
Who "loses" wealth when I code an in-demand piece of software?

Software uses electricity... a few wars going on over that fossil fuels thing. Maybe there are other examples where "wealth" is created though? Teachers teaching if you think of knowledge as wealth?

 

[Raccoon Love]

Well, if we have wealth because our ancestors stole it from Africa, and if that's the reason Africa is poor, it seems like we have responsibility to give it back somehow. Some historians and philosophers say that. I agree, just giving aid is too simple though. It's complicated to figure out how to do it (but that's not an excuse not to keep trying).



It could be that it's harder to recover from long term colonialism and slavery than from atomic bombs. Could be a lot of reasons.

The effects of atomic bombs are said to be felt for thousands of years, the country was under complete destruction, it takes a heck lot of courage to get back up after that, there's still radiation and people getting sick when they go through such areas, either way the country is scarred, Im not saying its easier or harder to recover but the overall action taken..did they stay stuck? no they moved on...no matter how hard or hell-like a situation might be, you moved on , thats the kind of ideal we need if we ever want to create a utopian society.


Some academics say the reason the corrupt government's leaders (thugs) stay in power is because rich countries give the thugs money for whatever natural resources are in the country. The thugs use the money to buy guns and soldiers to stay in power. The rich countries started doing this because it was easier than cleaning up the political chaos the rich countries left after colonialism.

Again your basing this evidence based on a limited amount of resources, there are those who claimed not, but that's not the point, the point is to end corruption in general we need to work in unity to get rid of any sort of corruption in Africa and anywhere in the world.




Yes... I didn't mean to sound like I meant just handing over aid.

 

[BenW]

Software uses electricity... a few wars going on over that fossil fuels thing. Maybe there are other examples where "wealth" is created though? Teachers teaching if you think of knowledge as wealth?

Frequently when people profit, "wealth" is created.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty fucking sure that say, Microsoft, manages to recoup their electricity bills with their sales.

 

[Raccoon Love]

Explain how AIDS affects me now? Idealistically this is all great and I really want this to happen, but realistically you have to think that most people aren't going to follow through with this through the kindness of their hearts.

BenW: Not my argument, but software is built on hardware. Better hardware = better and more software. Your argument kinda sounds like my imagination, so to speak. edit (b/c it was unclear) by itself it has no intrinsic value but can make something (like art or this post) that can be sold

I guess it's a way a person might view the world, there are those who are concerned for the overall well being of people, its not that it benefits in any way but I feel as it is the right thing to do, the human thing to do, ultimately I want my own personal happiness, but helping millions of others who are in pain and suffering is something I simply cant disregard.

 

[myst]

Frequently when people profit, "wealth" is created.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty fucking sure that say, Microsoft, manages to recoup their electricity bills with their sales.

I meant that electricity depends on finite natural resources.

 

[BenW]

I meant that electricity depends on finite natural resources.

Natural resources are finite, obviously.

MF's argument was that "capital" is limited, implying that one person profiting involves somebody else losing capital.

 

[Reon]

I guess it's a way a person might view the world, there are those who are concerned for the overall well being of people, its not that it benefits in any way but I feel as it is the right thing to do, the human thing to do, ultimately I want my own personal happiness, but helping millions of others who are in pain and suffering is something I simply cant disregard.

I am concerned about the well being of all people; I realize that my well being is combined into that as well. You can't expect everyone to care about everyone else more than they do themselves. People don't. It isn't logical too, either.

BenW: Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with what you said, I've been misreading crap all day. My bad.

 

[BenW]

NP.

 

[Raccoon Love]

I am concerned about the well being of all people; I realize that my well being is combined into that as well. You can't expect everyone to care about everyone else more than they do themselves. People don't. It isn't logical too, either.

BenW: Actually, it doesn't have anything to do with what you said, I've been misreading crap all day. My bad.

I never said such thing, I claim that we must do everything in our power to help the country progress, but I guess I did not mention as long as it does not interfere with our own development.

 

[myst]

The effects of atomic bombs are said to be felt for thousands of years, the country was under complete destruction, it takes a heck lot of courage to get back up after that, there's still radiation and people getting sick when they go through such areas, either way the country is scarred, Im not saying its easier or harder to recover but the overall action taken..did they stay stuck? no they moved on...no matter how hard or hell-like a situation might be, you moved on , thats the kind of ideal we need if we ever want to create a utopian society.

I agree, recovering from atomic bombs would be incomprehensibly awful. And I agree WE need to move on no matter what... in other words, we can't just blame Africa, but figure out what to do, like change international trade rules, help Africa build roads, water wells and infrastructure so they can help themselves, or something, I don't know what. I can tell you want to do something about it too.

the point is to end corruption in general we need to work in unity to get rid of any sort of corruption in Africa and anywhere in the world.

I didn't understand your whole sentence, but, yeah, I agree with this part.

BTW, I like your avatar. What kind of fish is it?

 

[myst]

Natural resources are finite, obviously.

MF's argument was that "capital" is limited, implying that one person profiting involves somebody else losing capital.

So am I understanding? MF said capital is limited, you gave software as an example where it isn't limited, and I'm saying it is limited because the natural resources it depends on ultimately are limited. So if one person profits on the software, someone else doesn't get the natural resources needed for the software and they lose. I'm not sure I understood.

 

[Reon]

I never said such thing, I claim that we must do everything in our power to help the country progress, but I guess I did not mention as long as it does not interfere with our own development.

I was explaining my thought further, not making assumptions on what you said. At least, I hope I didn't.

 

[myst]

I am concerned about the well being of all people; I realize that my well being is combined into that as well. You can't expect everyone to care about everyone else more than they do themselves. People don't.

Hey, isn't this what INFJs are for? But, yeah, you can't take it to extremes.