Why Charity Doesn't Work

[Raccoon Love]

I agree, recovering from atomic bombs would be incomprehensibly awful. And I agree WE need to move on no matter what... in other words, we can't just blame Africa, but figure out what to do, like change international trade rules, help Africa build roads, water wells and infrastructure so they can help themselves, or something, I don't know what. I can tell you want to do something about it too.



I didn't understand your whole sentence, but, yeah, I agree with this part.

BTW, I like your avatar. What kind of fish is it?

You got me here lol, I been trying to figure out so myself(been researching online since I don't remember where I got the pic from), I was thinking of majoring in Biology, but I will need to do a lot of work in identifying different animal species, either way I love the expression this fish gives, and yes I agree completely with what you are saying.

 

[Reon]

Hey, isn't this what INFJs are for? But, yeah, you can't take it to extremes.

Sadly, we don't have enough INFJs in the world to matter. Or, perhaps we do. Some quotes do come to mind though like "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" and all that jazz.

 

[BenW]

So am I understanding? MF said capital is limited, you gave software as an example where it isn't limited, and I'm saying it is limited because the natural resources it depends on ultimately are limited. So if one person profits on the software, someone else doesn't get the natural resources needed for the software and they lose. I'm not sure I understood.

I don't think you do understand.

His argument was that capital is limited was unrelated to finite resources (unless I've gravely misunderstood him), and had to do with capital being deprived from somebody if gained by somebody else.

And also, think about what you just stated there...
Exactly who is being deprived of electricity?
In the software business, the scarcity of electricity is not even CLOSE to being a barrier to entry... That's a comical notion.

 

[Raccoon Love]

Sadly, we don't have enough INFJs in the world to matter. Or, perhaps we do. Some quotes do come to mind though like "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" and all that jazz.

INFJ's might be small but we certainly have the power to make a difference, using compassion yet analytical and deep thinking, we are capable of making a change if we propose ourselves to do it, INFJ's are not the only ones with this strong desire, any mature type is capable of doing so actually, we just all take different roles on how we appeoach this.

 

[enfp can be shy]

/off-topic

MF's argument was that "capital" is limited, implying that one person profiting involves somebody else losing capital.

Extending the total sum hurts the worth of savings, and central regulation of inflation/deflation doesn't work too well. So someone is losing wealth all the time, for sure.

/on-topic
I'm aware that the only reasonable option as mass charity, for now, is to throw money for some cause. I just hope people who do it are able to ensure building of good working systems top-down. The systems are important in the end, not the money.

 

[BenW]

Extending the total sum hurts the worth of savings, and central regulation of inflation/deflation doesn't work too well. So someone is losing wealth all the time, for sure.

Again, I have to ask, relation to a business transaction?

I don't recall arguing that people don't loose wealth, ever.
My argument is that a gain of wealth does not correlate to somebody else losing it.
You could maybe make the argument for opportunity cost, but that's pretty fuzzy.

 

[myst]

Sadly, we don't have enough INFJs in the world to matter. Or, perhaps we do. Some quotes do come to mind though like "The path to hell is paved with good intentions" and all that jazz.

Yeah, good intentions can make a big 'ol mess. Hmm, so we need some ISTPs? to keep us in touch with the realiy in front of our faces? ISFJs? ESTJs? *runs and hides from mortal enemy* jk

 

[myst]

You got me here lol, I been trying to figure out so myself(been researching online since I don't remember where I got the pic from), I was thinking of majoring in Biology, but I will need to do a lot of work in identifying different animal species, either way I love the expression this fish gives, and yes I agree completely with what you are saying.

I like its eyes

 

[enfp can be shy]

/off-off-topic

My argument is that a gain of wealth does not correlate to somebody else losing it.

Somebody else keeps what they had before, but it's worth less.

As a very extreme example; imagine that I create new technology that makes the efforts of the whole 20th century worthless in comparison, similarly to the software giants. That would skyrocket me in such a way (imagine it's a much more extreme superior way), that what anybody else owns becomes worthless and negligible. Then what, humanity is my slave? I rightfully deserved it, they can't catch up.

 

[myst]

I don't think you do understand.

His argument was that capital is limited was unrelated to finite resources (unless I've gravely misunderstood him), and had to do with capital being deprived from somebody if gained by somebody else.

And also, think about what you just stated there...
Exactly who is being deprived of electricity?
In the software business, the scarcity of electricity is not even CLOSE to being a barrier to entry... That's a comical notion.

The point is electricity/fossil fuel (capital) won't always be unlimited. I'm talking about capitalism in the somewhat longer term.

 

[WellNoWonder]

I don't get why there's some sort of resentment whites and others might have towards themselves, we are not responsible to whatever the heck our ancestors might have done, and we know we are not like the people who lived on older times so why have so many prejudices? much of the reason why we are doing is simply to look good, well this is not helping Africa in any sort of way, they need to be able to grow as a continent and not depend simply on the more developed countries, look at Japan, got hit by 2 atomic bombs and do you see them crying all day about it? no they moved on, its time to stop the ignorance, sure lets all aid Africa but whats the purpose? if our help ends up not solving the big issue, first lets get rid of all the corruption and the ignorance there is of many sexual transmitted diseases and then maybe the continent can grow, once this happens we can aid the Africans economically and politically, advising them, and forming relations, but this is of no help and its never going to happen if the main problem is not targeted.

This may be a bit extreme to say, but I really sick of African colonialization by countries pretending to be their friends. Colonialism exists from afar in Africa, and it is fucked up to say the least. I want to add more but I am on this qwerty.
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[WellNoWonder]

This may be a bit extreme to say, but I really sick of African colonialization by countries pretending to be their friends. Colonialism exists from afar in Africa, and it is fucked up to say the least. I want to add more but I am on this qwerty.
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I'm trying. I think that people just don't GET it. Africa was fine before colonialism. It is when the resources which exist were discovered, people started playing "Let's us just slide on in over there. ". And then the psychology of Africans was learned, and of course money-forward people learned this psychology and used it to their benefit. I am not making this a race thing at all. There we're Africans who knowingly contributed to this, and still do.
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[arbygil]

1. Raccoon's icon is of a Puffer Fish.

2. It's easy to create theoretical arguments about how we can solve the crisis of the poor but the truth is *nothing* works. Every society has poor among them and some societies have more than others.

A recent report went out and I posted the link on this forum (can't remember where I posted it, sorry) that said the US has the highest ratio of haves to have-nots in the western world for our size and resources. That's pretty ugly, IMO. If we all came down to it, I think part of the problem is giving the wrong resources at the wrong time, not necessarily the giving of the resources period. For example, it's good to give a homeless man food if he's starving but it's not necessarily a good idea to give him money. And it's important to help train someone so they can have a job, but if they're not ready to give up their lifestyle (some people don't want to change) then the training is useless. You can't force the training.

Everything must be viewed on an singular basis and we all must be knowledgeable of why we give and to whom we give. Are we giving to organizations that don't have accountability? That's seriously wrong. But are we giving to people who can use what we give them and create more resources for their community? That's seriously right.

I usually give to organizations that help create resources for the poor so the poor can manage themselves. That's an important step. There are many organizations that do this and I don't think the answer is to stop giving. The answer is to start giving with accountability to the correct programs that can actually make the differences. Organizations that can help the poor and impoverished sustain themselves despite the circumstances their living in, with regards to their environment and their world views.

 

[WellNoWonder]

1. Raccoon's icon is of a Puffer Fish.

2. It's easy to create theoretical arguments about how we can solve the crisis of the poor but the truth is *nothing* works. Every society has poor among them and some societies have more than others.

A recent report went out and I posted the link on this forum (can't remember where I posted it, sorry) that said the US has the highest ratio of haves to have-nots in the western world for our size and resources. That's pretty ugly, IMO. If we all came down to it, I think part of the problem is giving the wrong resources at the wrong time, not necessarily the giving of the resources period. For example, it's good to give a homeless man food if he's starving but it's not necessarily a good idea to give him money. And it's important to help train someone so they can have a job, but if they're not ready to give up their lifestyle (some people don't want to change) then the training is useless. You can't force the training.

Everything must be viewed on an singular basis and we all must be knowledgeable of why we give and to whom we give. Are we giving to organizations that don't have accountability? That's seriously wrong. But are we giving to people who can use what we give them and create more resources for their community? That's seriously right.

I usually give to organizations that help create resources for the poor so the poor can manage themselves. That's an important step. There are many organizations that do this and I don't think the answer is to stop giving. The answer is to start giving with accountability to the correct programs that can actually make the differences. Organizations that can help the poor and impoverished sustain themselves despite the circumstances their living in, with regards to their environment and their world views.

Right on.
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[Kaipaus]

I don't think that being poor and needing help means that one is somehow worse than the givers/helpers, or less normal. I give money to charity, knowing that if I was in a position in which I needed help, I would be glad to get the help that I needed. Giving money to the poor actually makes me more aware that I could be one of them, myself-- that the poor are not, in fact, so different from me.

I do think that educating children (and especially girls) in the third world countries is crucial and more important than giving the people food or building wells for them. Besides, when they get a good education, they don't need our help so much any more. So I think you have a point-- helping the poor by giving them food, shelter, money etc isn't enough. Luckily, in my country this is acknowledged, and usually when I give to charity, at least some of the money goes to education in the third world countries. And that's good to know.

 

[Faye]

I agree that we need to change the system, but I don't think we should stop charity until that change is implemented in spite of the psycho-social implications. A much worse situation is to let people go hungry, cold, etc....

 

[Solar Empath]

Capitalism requires the poor because someone has to flip the burgers, wash the dishes, harvest the food, make the widgets and mow the lawn so that 'better' people can have 'real' jobs. Unless someone is saying that some day a burger flipper will start making a middle class salary without prices and salaries for all other jobs going up at the same time to compensate?

 

[sookie]

I am actually writing a paper on this right now. I am writing a paper on Wolf Wolfensburgers theory. The name of the Theory is off putting. It is essentially the theory of normalization. It is called Social Role Valorization. The idea is that societies around the world take power and social roles (job, student, wife, scholar...) away from people who are are 'devalued.' This means the poverty, race, and disability are criteria that people are judeged against and devalued in societies over the world.

If someone is disfigured, poor, disabled, they are cast in devalued roles where they get pitied and are considered helpless. I am studying this theory and comparing it to Helen Kellers life. She was blind and deaf. She learned Greek, Latin and German. She graduated from Radcliffe University (Harvard's sister school). She championed causes for women's rights, and rights of the disabled. Before her death she Lyndon B. Johnson gave her the Presidential medal of freedom. For a civilian in the United States there is noe honor that is higher.

What does this have to do with charities? Of course we should give to charities. People need the money in order to help start new lives. Advertising, how people are portrayed in books and movies is important to empower and not take their power away. How the money is used is important. Is it used mostly for the people running the organization to make a profit (this does happen). Is it used to help people get back on their feet so to speak? Does the money purchase a wheel chare so someone who can not walk can get around in a way that they can go and earn a living?

 

[Sithious]

oh noes, teh evil capitalism

 

[54192&#cmy]

It's easy to fix poverty around the world. Quit using money. And then when you do that there will just be a new lower standard of poor. First of all what is poor? How would you describe a poor person? If you say a poor person lives in a poor country who's standard are you judging them by? And why are you judging them? It does not matter if it is capitalism democracy communism or the catholic church people like to create positions of power to achieve. Even if money was not the issue something else would be. The problem with the planet is humanity. And until humanity realizes that we all belong here we will have problems. And there is no way to make that happen. It is impossible. This life we have requires pain and suffering. It is the only path to growth. I have been thinking about this for a very long time. I too want to make life fair. But you cannot do it. Life is just not fair. It never was meant to be. Fairness is just a dream that humans have dreamed up. That is why for me the older I get the more I am turning to God. I am turning to love and acceptance. I will buy a homeless guy a meal I did it the other day. I will also pass out my money to them when I can. They are only there because we give it. Some are not. Some are desperate and that is a last resort. The homeless people I run into are either mentally ill or have lost their job forever, and they have given up. The focus on money can be good. Most of the time it is bad because of the power and corruption it brings with it. Money can buy everything. It once bought human life for a time. America is not the only place to have had slavery. Do not forget that Spain destroyed an entire civilization that made the American Indians look like a joke. The Native people of South America paid a heavy price for mans lust for gold and wealth. We have destroyed entire civilizations of people for money. Human life has been wasted because of it. I would call money the most expensive drug. I robs you of your time on earth and it makes you a slave to it. Today's slave owners are the banks and they have enslaved us with debt. We need each other to survive I just wish we could all see that and deal with one another in a fair and responsible way. It's a pipe dream that will never end. Life should and maybe could be fair but first we have to find a standard of fairness to agree on.