Why don't women make the first move?

[jupiterswoon]

So in an age of equality why don't women make the first move?

Shouldn't women approach guys as much as guys approach women?

If guys always make the first move and if many guys are too shy or sensitive to make the first move then is that why 'nice guys always come last' because under such a cultural norm the more assertive and aggressive males would be the ones approaching women and therefore having the most success?

What do people think about this issue?

When I make the first move I don't hear back....

 

[Elis]

To me gender equality should be about having the same rights, not whether or not we are the same in x regard. I think it is somewhat nonsensical to assume that we are exactly the same - and therein acting the same, i.e. when asking out.

Do what YOU want to do, not what you think you're supposed to do.


As for your question, I think it is a bit of a non-issue. But then again, I don't date much.

 

[muir]

When I make the first move I don't hear back....

gorgeous gal like you?

Are you sure you're going for the right guys?

But look....this experience you are talking about here....this is something guys deal with all the time

The reality is that we don't really know when we look at a person if they are compatible with us and half the time we are going on superficial criteria at that stage

This means there is going to be some trial and error and the more niche we are as people (INFJ's are 1% of the population!!!) then arguably the less people we are going to be compatible with

I can only offer sympathy and say that rejection has been the lot of men for a long time

perhaps if more women start to pro-actively initiate things we will have more encounters going on between men and women; now sure many of those will prove unfruitful but alongside it will come a change in cultural attitudes to a more relaxed attitude where failure is acceptable and does not carry the same kind of psychic hurt...a freer, more fluid, less shame/fear based approach

If people are mixing it up more then they will view interactions in a more philosophical way

What messes things up imo is when people make everything into such a big deal because this puts pressure on all of us and it ruins the trip

 

[muir]

To me gender equality should be about having the same rights, not whether or not we are the same in x regard. I think it is somewhat nonsensical to assume that we are exactly the same - and therein acting the same, i.e. when asking out.

Do what YOU want to do, not what you think you're supposed to do.


As for your question, I think it is a bit of a non-issue. But then again, I don't date much.

The issue has arisen because marxist-feminism has worked its way into universities around the western world; it is teaching people for example in 'womens studies' that men and women are EXACTLY the same and that any perceivable differences are down to cultural baggage that exists only in our minds

I want to make the point that men and women are different and that the idea that we can be equal in every sense is simply not true

Personally for me the joy in the male/female dynamic is that women are different from me! Its the contrast i love!

I don't want to see women trying to be men....i want women to be women cos its femininity that i enjoy

That said if women are going to be more assertive in society then we might as well enjoy the perk of them approaching us!

But it seems they want to be more assertive whilst at the sametime leaving it upto us to do the legwork...seems like no bonus there for guys

 

[Elis]

Is the issue that their behavior doesn't align with what you want, or that it is socially constructed?

 

[Quiet]

This is a very interesting question and i think that it is because of factors such as culture, society, family matrix, social mobility, ability to be self sufficent, trust, safety, values, beliefs, expectations, desires, individual preferences, sociability, friendliness, approachability, personality, assertiveness, self-contained-ness, confidence, ability to handle 'rejection', self worthiness, security, worldview and beliefs about the nature of life, religious beliefs, spiritual beliefs, accepted norms and etiquette, attitudes and beliefs in regard to sex, friendship, relationships, parents, family, community, and children, the place of the 'mother', 'brother', 'father', and 'sister' in a given community, the need to adhere and conform to group norms, ideas about gender, ideas about biological sex, equality of the sexes, access to sexual health knowledge and birth control, and physical differences between men and women.

Although i find evolutionary psychology interesting, i do not subscribe to the theories. It would take more time than i am prepared to invest into this thread to explain why i find these theories flawed.
But i do clearly see and agree that our beliefs, needs, and environment have a great deal to do with our behaviour.

I've lived in and interacted with a number of different cultures, sometimes all living within the same community. I think that our beliefs about the 'self' and sexual equality has a lot to do with our attitudes about everything.

I think that in cultures that are more democratic, free thinking, sexually equal, high social mobility and access to resources, low levels of violence, feelings of personal safety and societal safety, general trust, more relaxed attitudes towards marriage, community support and nurturance for children, honour and respect for the state of childhood.....women and men are likely to have no trouble approaching each other. In my opinion directly formed from the people i have interacted with, people enculturalised in the predominant culture of New Zealand and Scandinavian countries seem to have as many women approaching men as they do men approaching women. Subcultures such as paganism, 'alternative' lifestylers, 'hippies', 'punksters', new agers, secular humanists, liberal 'hillsong' christianity...etc... seem to be pretty evenly on par as well. Australia is kind of on par, for the most part, but mostly within certain subcultures.

Women approaching men is less likely to occur in societies that are more rigid, and less safe etc. There are many parts of the world where raping is seen as okay, where violence is accepted and normal, where people carry around weapons, where police, authorities, and the justice system is more feared than trusted. More fear, less trust. People feel more vulnerable and are in offence/defence mode. More distrust of strangers. Less wanting to reach out, less wanting to help those less fortunate, less state-taxpayer services. Feelings of distrust between the sexes, and polarisation of genders. Less tolerance towards homosexuality and non 'status quo' relationships. Less people wanting to approach others to connect, less women approaching men, and more women uncomfortable with the way men approach women.

The safety issue, simply because men are on average larger than women, is very important to consider in a culture where there is fear of violence.

Personally i dont think that greater physical size and strength is threatening. I have stopped fights between people that were much larger and angrier than me. When I have been physically threatened, I have been able to change the situation without using bodily force. Where there is no fear, no harm can be done.
I have been sexually harassed, assaulted, and raped, and it wasn't because I was necessarily overpowered by people that were bigger, it was because I was in a vulnerable and unsafe mindset at those times, and had limited access to social support because of culturally based stigmas.

In Australia, i think that we have achieved a wonderful level of sexual equality for the most part but there are serious gaps, and i believe that these are perpetuated by attitudes of fear, and encouraged by those who wish to control people by keeping them in a fear state.
There is a lot of mixed messages floating around and being shoved down peoples throats. Why do so many women still believe they are inferior to men? Why are people still obsessed with power plays and bullshit like dominant verus submissive? Why do people still believe they need someone else to take care of them and give them their self worth? Why is the beauty and fashion industry so huge? Why is the 'sickness' industry so huge? why are so many people living on borrowed time and debt and married to mortages that they have to work 10-30 years for? So many people think their 'time' belongs to the employers and corporations? Who and what are these people living for? So many of these massive shopping complexes full of stuff that will mostly end up in landfill? People paranoid about terrorists living around the corner and those 'dangerous' displaced refugees? People afraid that everything comes down to power plays and comparisions- money, control over other people, physical strength, physical beauty, and youth...all things that are conditional and pass away. Me against you...because we are competing for resources...but me needs you, because me needs approval to feel any self worth...this ugly contradiction would drive anyone insane.

There is a lot of crap in advertising, books, movies, television, magazines etc that enculturalise men and women from an early age, not to mention their parents! Parents are the main way people most people become enculturalised and fucked up. Seriously, parents are lol to blame for so much shit, and every war.....

I'm constantly wondering about how the things are doing are inadvertently fucking up my daughter...

I don't want her to exposed to all the disgusting brainwashing that abounds. We dont watch television or listen to the radio or read magazines, we are careful where we shop, who we interact with etc. And Fuck you Disney! I didnt watch Disney movies when i was a child, so I didnt know what the all the fuss was about. Some are okay, God bless Tinkerbell! But a lot of them are awful, like the Disney Princess movies which are based on old 'fairytales'. Good versus evil, hopeless heroine, saviour hero, mean witches etc. My daughter's second mum was raised on that crap, and my God, the shit she believes acceptable and normal...its nuts! I gave in and let my daughter watch 'Frozen', after some deliberation, which i thought was 'ok'. But the majority of them.....innocent children are being exposed to this rubbish that is being marketed for 'childrens' entertainment.

Last month i watched the miley cyrus video that had been causing so much commotion that even i, in my sheltered and removed existence, become aware of it. What The Fuck!!!! I dont even....never mind. Honestly i thought it was hilarious, and i loved being shocked incredulous. In general I enjoy a lot of 'adult orientated' material where consenting adults have fun. But I dont think this material is suitable for children. My daughter will be able to watch it when she's older and making her own decisions about how to appropriately brainwash herself and fuck up her neurons with her chosen role models.

I am certainly not a 'stiletto' feminist. Yes, ofcourse embrace your sexuality and all that......sex is one of the things that makes being human so good....love and honour your body etc....But i fail to see how someone that is marketing themselves as a sexual object is empowering or good for men and women. Spending 2 hours getting dressed and made up so that you look completely different cant be good for anyone's self confidence. Wearing shoes that are painful and a hazardous death risk, placing burning hot implements near your face and skull, placing sharp plastic claws on your hands, using toxic materials on your person.... If you have your tits out of your top, don't complain when people look at them! Sorry, i know that im coming across as judgemental. And i really am sorry. I honestly dont care what other people do, each to their own....people do things for their own reasons...personal freedom is the most important thing here anyway.... but i do not want my daughter thinking that its 'normal' for women to carry on this way. Its cultural!!!

Clearly now im just ranting...but anyway...its everyone's personal choice to keep reading my judgemental ramblings...i find it very tacky, immature, and annoying when people purposefully and manipulatively use and abuse their sexuality to a/effect people, and the same when people use their brute strength, status, and money in that way. I believe people only do this when they feel they have no inherent self worth, and therefore resort to the lowest common denominator in an endeavour to scrounge power by attempting to disempower other people.

I think that currently, more people are moving to the next stage which is to become more integrated and whole as a human being, by accepting that they are a 'person', before they are a man or a woman, and accepting that we all have masculine and feminine energies that we can use for our happiness and success, and successfully integrate these energies into a balance whole...aka alchemical marriage

I see people as 'God', Spirit, Human. Whether they are a man or woman comes next, and is not necessarily important, given the context of the interaction.

I know that I'm a woman, but I dont see myself as feminine or masculine. I am clearly both. I don't feel I need 'someone' to balance me and make me whole. I am whole. I like myself. I can take care of myself. I like to give and receive and share with others. But there is nothing I truly need or want from anyone.
Generally, i approach people. I smile at people when i walk past, greet people....and in social situations- initiate conversations. Mostly in a quiet way, i'm rarely loud or talkative. I am curious about people, and i am friendly and i feel that it is polite to acknowledge people and put them at ease. At a party i'll ask someone a question like 'do you think dogs have souls', or 'would you kill a puppy for a million dollars', or 'do you remember what you last dreamt about'? Sometimes i am stuck in my head and can ignore anything and everything going on around me...i need my own space...i try not to go out in public when im in these phases, and when i do, im definitely much more reserved. But still, i make an effort, even when uncomfortable, to be polite and respectful.

There are many times when I feel compelled to connect with people. Its been that way my whole life, with people of all ages and backgrounds, many of whom I never see again after that initial connection. There is something that I feel compelled to say, or something that I know I should hear. I feel this way about places, events, and certain objects as well.

For me, to meet someone i find attractive is extremely rare. I dont normally see people in a 'sexual' way. Nor do i normally see myself in a 'sexual' way. I just dont think about it that often. So if i find someone attractive, I approach them straight away, simply because i'm excited to meet them and talk to them. I am respectful when I approach people. I dont like pushiness, harassment, ambiguity, mixed confusing messages, flirtyness, trashiness, and aggressive behaviour, so im careful to approach people in a way where my intent is crystal clear, yet they have lots of breathing space to say no. No cheesy pick up lines or anything overtly sexual until i'm sure im dealing with a consenting adult.
I've been rejected numerous times. The first time I approached someone it was at a bluelight disco when I was 14! Everyone was dancing and some people were pairing up. I saw a boy across the room and acted almost without thinking. The boy said no, and then he pointed out his girlfriend...who was staring daggers at me. I retreated and tried to blend into the wall, and hid behind my friends. As I got older, the rejection element wasn't an issue. My feeling arent hurt if someone isn't interested in me and they are honest about it. Unless the rejection was accompanied by meaness, rumours, and cruelty, which unfortunately on a couple of occasions it was, but clearly those people were morons and while i was hurt, i was also grateful that I hadnt gotten any further with them! I find myself unable to be attracted to someone if they are not attracted to me, or if i dont 'like' them. ive never felt unrequited love. And im never attracted to someone purely for physical reasons, it is overwhelmingly because of their personality and how they make me feel when im around them.

i have approached all 3 men that i have ended up having a long term relationships with. The first person to walk over, the first person to start talking, the first person to initiate sexual activity-normally by kissing them in a very obvious way. The subsequent relationship either formed organically or was something that the other party initiated. This is mainly because I am hesitant to enter romantic relationships, and not necessarily willing to give the 'commitment' and meet the obligations that the other person requires, for various reasons. During those relationships, there were plenty of times where I initiated sexual activity and was turned down. For some reason, I found being turned down by the person I was having a romantic relationship with much more hurtful than being turned down by someone else in a different context. It would make me feel awkward, embarrassed, insecure, confused, and frustrated. Now, in hindsight, im able to better understand what was happening, heal those insecurities, and let those hang ups go.

I think the reasons why I am comfortable approaching men (and women, i like women too) is because:
-honestly I am comfortable with myself, i adore my own company, bordering on something like narcissism and arrogance lol. Sometimes I annoy myself, but...i like being me and I dont want to be anyone else.
-spirituality, worldview, spiritual support
-i take responsibility for my life and everything that happens in it
-i have a great family that love me dearly, and can be counted on if everything falls to shit
-my sister and i (who are really close) inherited a house, so we have never worried about money or a place to live if we need it
-my parents were pretty decent role models, very balanced in terms of gender
-my parents never made me do 'girly' things or said I had to do things because 'thats just what women do'.
-my mum was very assertive, confident, nurturing, organised, and independent. She taught me pretty much all basic life skills by the time I was 8.
-my dad was caring, kind, intuitive, gentle and intelligent. He always encouraged any intellectual pursuits and gave us whatever we wanted.
-my dad always treated me like an equal, even when we were living in sexist communities
-my parents always listened to my advice and asked me to be a part of most major decisions
-im not hung up over my physical appearance...it is not something I think about a lot. If someone rejects me because of it, I dont feel they have really taken anything from me, well anything I can change anyway, and plus then I think that the other person is superficial.
-i've always been independent and more or less self reliant
-i have my own money and don't have trouble getting more if I really want it
-i dont feel dependant on anyone
-i feel safe and secure, and am generally trusting
- i see all people as my brothers and sisters
-and i have a lot of gemini energy- sun, ascendant, mercury, venus, north node
-friendship and connection is more important to me than sex and relationships


Overall, i think that something our society really lacks is 'safe' places for people to meet, interact, and connect, for purposes of friendship and potentially romantic...stuff. I am working on organising what i call a 'forum restaurant'. I had the idea when i was at uni. I noticed that many people struggled to approach others, and were then lonely and deprived of connection and support as a result. I noticed some people struggle to make conversation even though they are interested in engaging with people. I noticed that older people find it hard to make friends outside of their current contacts and workplace. I noticed that people of different ages sometimes find it hard to broach the age gap and just talk and connect as people. I noticed that men and women are sometimes afraid of each other and dont know how to approach each other. I noticed that people often interact a lot more comfortably if they are in a 'safe' place and are given a topic to discuss. The concept has been evolving and changing from then, and is still not finished yet, but is looking good.

 

[muir]

Is the issue that their behavior doesn't align with what you want, or that it is socially constructed?

I don't know to what extent it is socially constructed

Some people here are saying it is more intrinsic than that

I also on one hand argue that men and women are innately different but on the other hand i'm questioning if this is one area where that is the case

Truth is i don't know

But i do think that a greater understanding of the trials and tribulations of the the other gender can help us to be more accomodating

Its all part of empathising isn't it?

If we can appreciate the struggles the other gender has then perhaps we can behave more sympathetically

 

[La Sagna]

No i'm just trying to make women see things from a slightly different perspective

There's been some feminist chat on the forum recently with a flavour of persecution and i'm trying to point out that women are not as dissempowered as some of them try to make out

I believe i have demonstrated in this thread that women not only control the equality tap but they also control the sex tap; they are therefore not powerless victims within the system

In fact when you really break a lot of these issues down it seems that it is men who get the raw deal

I'm not sure what persecution you're speaking of. I think sometimes you read persecution into posts that aren't that at all.

I personally do not feel that I need to control any other human beings, male or female, etc.. but I do feel I have 100% the right to control what I do with my body and who I do it with.

It's basically up to individuals to approach another person or not, if men have an issue with doing that then they can stop and if women want to hook up with them they will have to make the first move. I know it's not that simple but it is pretty much the choice of each individual as to what they choose to do, if they let their ego or other outside influences control whether they approach somebody or not then they limit themselves and their opportunities. It's basically a choice.

By the way, my mother in the 60s is the one who asked my dad out, and she was 15 at the time. In those days it wasn't an accepted practice so she decided to have a party so she could invite him to it.

Also, the gentleman who I mentioned previously who is very outgoing and friendly but not comfortable asking women out mentioned to me that in all his past relationships he was pursued by the women and that includes one where they ended up having a child together.

I don't think it's that rare for women to ask men out but I do think that they may need to know them more before they decide to make the first move.

 

[cvp12gh5]

So in an age of equality why don't women make the first move?

Shouldn't women approach guys as much as guys approach women?

If guys always make the first move and if many guys are too shy or sensitive to make the first move then is that why 'nice guys always come last' because under such a cultural norm the more assertive and aggressive males would be the ones approaching women and therefore having the most success?

What do people think about this issue?

I am a woman and I am usually the one to make the first move when I'm interested in a guy. I'm rather aggressive in that department especially if the guy if too shy to do it. And I prefer to be in this position. I have a preference for shy guys that I can take advantage of and have my way with.

I will say that I think you are off in believing that women don't make the first move in this "age of equality". It has less to do with perceived gender roles and more to do with each individual's personality. There are aggressive women and then there are women that like to be pursued. There are men that like to be pursued and there are women that like to be the pursuer.
You might want to reconsider the type of woman you are after if this is a problem you are having. Go for warmer blood.

I would also like to say that nice guys do not finish last. Nice guys are usually dodging a bullet when they miss an opportunity with a girl who passes them by for a loud mouth jock type. Nice guys eventually meet nice girls. Like myself. And that's a huge win.

 

[Delta]

By the way, my mother in the 60s is the one who asked my dad out, and she was 15 at the time. In those days it wasn't an accepted practice so she decided to have a party so she could invite him to it.

I love this, just SO classy!

Had to say that.

 

[muir]

I'm not sure what persecution you're speaking of. I think sometimes you read persecution into posts that aren't that at all.

I personally do not feel that I need to control any other human beings, male or female, etc.. but I do feel I have 100% the right to control what I do with my body and who I do it with.

It's basically up to individuals to approach another person or not, if men have an issue with doing that then they can stop and if women want to hook up with them they will have to make the first move. I know it's not that simple but it is pretty much the choice of each individual as to what they choose to do, if they let their ego or other outside influences control whether they approach somebody or not then they limit themselves and their opportunities. It's basically a choice.

By the way, my mother in the 60s is the one who asked my dad out, and she was 15 at the time. In those days it wasn't an accepted practice so she decided to have a party so she could invite him to it.

Also, the gentleman who I mentioned previously who is very outgoing and friendly but not comfortable asking women out mentioned to me that in all his past relationships he was pursued by the women and that includes one where they ended up having a child together.

I don't think it's that rare for women to ask men out but I do think that they may need to know them more before they decide to make the first move.

This thread is really an extension of the 'is feminism outdated' thread

In that other thread i posted a talk by warren farrel in which he raises the point that women have the power of refusal over men who are expected to make the first move

I thought it was an intersting train of thought

I also agree with him that the idea of 'power' needs to be redefined. For example is it 'powerful' to be a slave to work all your life and to not get a good work/life balance? Whats the point of being money rich but time poor for example? Women, farrel points out, are often better at gettting a good balance and are therefore he argues more empowered then many men

This is a trap many men are caught in perhaps due to cultural pressures and conditioning and i think it needs a re-think

I raised farrels point about women having refusal power over men in that thread but no one picked up on it! So i thought i'd give it it's own thread

I've found it interesting to hear peoples views and particularly the womens views. Many appreciate that it is a tough aspect of the male experience but at the samer time they like it that way

I think there are others areas that would be worth exploring relating to these issues fior example the female commentator that someone else posted a video of in that thread said that women dressed to impress other women NOT men. Well i agree with her. But i would say that how we act and dress is a form of communication. We also know that men are visually stimulated so if a woman dresses in a sexy way to impress other women she should i think be aware that she is also going to have an impact on men who might missinterprete her physical communication as a signal that she is single and looking for male attention

This is a problem when men have to make the first move because there are now lots of women putting out sexyness signals that men will interprete a certain way and yet when the man goes to make a move the woman acts all indignant and says ''leave me alone and stop harassing me'' (whilst possibly lambasting men for being sex crazed pigs or whatever)
@charlene raises this point about female dress above

This issue blew up into the mainstream not that long ago when a police chief said that women should dress more conservatively when walking around at night lest they draw negative attention from males; this caused a massive backlash from women who marched in protest claiming their right to dress like 'sluts'!

Clearly they hadn't stopped to consider whether they should be dressing like sluts in the first place

men know that they shouldn't dress certain ways particularly when walking through certain areas for example in my county if you walk through the wrong area wearing certain football team colours then you are liable to get your head kicked in or be stabbed so i'm not sure why women seem to think they should get all these special rules to apply just for them whilst at the same time droning on about 'equality'

I also think this recent feminist view that women have been oppressed for centuries is nonsense. They are failing to look at the historic context. It's only recently that we switched to a 'service economy' where jobs have become suitable for women. Before that the work during the agricultural and industrial revolutions was dirty, dangerous and brutal and i think the women at home managing the household were probably appreciative of the graft their fella was putting in to support the family down the mines, or in the fields, docks or factories

I think if you went back in time and asked those women if they thought they were being 'oppressed' i think they'd laugh!

The service economy has provided a space in the work environment for women but there is a problem with that situation. It is not a real economy...it is a house of cards because it is not built on producing things like a 'manufacturing economy'. It is built on debt and money printing neither of which are sustainable and unfortunatly the economic problems we are now seeing which are only going to deepen are the chickens coming home to roost on the service economy

There is however a ray of light in that mechanisation is advancing apace which could mean that the brutal aspect of work can be carried out by machines meaning we only need apply brain power which enables both men and women to work on a level playing field as equals

There is a danger however with mechanisation in that if we do not manage to restructure our political and economic set up and decentralise power down to the people then the centralised power people will use machines to subjugate humanity NOT to liberate them from work

Thi is why as we enter the mechanisation (robotisation and computerisation) age we must, also as well as creating a workplace environment favourable to both men and women, take the power of decsion making back of the power elites and place it in the hands of the common man and woman

But i strongly feel that as we transition to this new phase in order to achieve what i've outlined above women must not allow themselves to be manipulated into feeling persecuted by men when in fact men have been breaking their backs for centuries for the good of our species as a whole and they have certainly not been enjoying an easier life than women

 

[muir]

I am a woman and I am usually the one to make the first move when I'm interested in a guy. I'm rather aggressive in that department especially if the guy if too shy to do it. And I prefer to be in this position. I have a preference for shy guys that I can take advantage of and have my way with.

I will say that I think you are off in believing that women don't make the first move in this "age of equality". It has less to do with perceived gender roles and more to do with each individual's personality. There are aggressive women and then there are women that like to be pursued. There are men that like to be pursued and there are women that like to be the pursuer.
You might want to reconsider the type of woman you are after if this is a problem you are having. Go for warmer blood.

I would also like to say that nice guys do not finish last. Nice guys are usually dodging a bullet when they miss an opportunity with a girl who passes them by for a loud mouth jock type. Nice guys eventually meet nice girls. Like myself. And that's a huge win.

Some fair points!

 

[La Sagna]

I love this, just SO classy!

Had to say that.

My mom was a really cool lady. They were married happily for 37 years until she passed away. I am very grateful that she did ask him out or else I wouldn't be here and they were great parents. She made a good choice.

 

[jupiterswoon]

gorgeous gal like you?

Are you sure you're going for the right guys?

But look....this experience you are talking about here....this is something guys deal with all the time

The reality is that we don't really know when we look at a person if they are compatible with us and half the time we are going on superficial criteria at that stage

This means there is going to be some trial and error and the more niche we are as people (INFJ's are 1% of the population!!!) then arguably the less people we are going to be compatible with

I can only offer sympathy and say that rejection has been the lot of men for a long time

perhaps if more women start to pro-actively initiate things we will have more encounters going on between men and women; now sure many of those will prove unfruitful but alongside it will come a change in cultural attitudes to a more relaxed attitude where failure is acceptable and does not carry the same kind of psychic hurt...a freer, more fluid, less shame/fear based approach

If people are mixing it up more then they will view interactions in a more philosophical way

What messes things up imo is when people make everything into such a big deal because this puts pressure on all of us and it ruins the trip

I think the other thing is that I want to feel pursued. If a guy can't make the first move then I feel like that would speak to what the relationship would be like later on, like maybe the guy was just "settling" for me if I make the first move and then a relationship develops. I feel like a guy who can't make the first move won't have the initiative to do special things for me later on, once the "spark" is more solidified into a relationship. Having been in a relationship where I took all the initiative really changed the way I view relationships. Things are much more transactional than I think most idealists would like to believe. Really, it seems like relationships should be about "love" but the truth is, usually the success of a relationship requires that "spark" just as much as it requires effort and hard work. It seems like many people happily put in little effort to relationships, and expect a big spark. I would for that reason alone, look at the future of a relationship (based on whether a guy approached me)- and place a lot of importance on their ability to approach me and make the first move, and what their first move was.

The guy who totally swept me off of my feet made very grand gestures indeed. But that's a different story.

 

[muir]

I think the other thing is that I want to feel pursued. If a guy can't make the first move then I feel like that would speak to what the relationship would be like later on, like maybe the guy was just "settling" for me if I make the first move and then a relationship develops. I feel like a guy who can't make the first move won't have the initiative to do special things for me later on, once the "spark" is more solidified into a relationship. Having been in a relationship where I took all the initiative really changed the way I view relationships. Things are much more transactional than I think most idealists would like to believe. Really, it seems like relationships should be about "love" but the truth is, usually the success of a relationship requires that "spark" just as much as it requires effort and hard work. It seems like many people happily put in little effort to relationships, and expect a big spark. I would for that reason alone, look at the future of a relationship (based on whether a guy approached me)- and place a lot of importance on their ability to approach me and make the first move, and what their first move was.

The guy who totally swept me off of my feet made very grand gestures indeed. But that's a different story.

I understand but if you put the shoe on the other foot a guy could say exactly the same about you

He could say: ''if she can't be bothered to approach me then why would she make any effort later on in the relationship?''

You see when you look at things through the 'equality' lens you realise that what women want is not really equality

Women want to be treated differently than men; they want a different set of rules to apply to them

This is why it all gets very complicated because women are changing some aspects of the game but not others and it kinda seems to guys like women are cherry-picking the best bits of equality and leaving out the worst!

So women want to be equal when it allows them to do what they want to do but they don't want the equality rules to apply when it would mean they have to do something they don't want to do

Just sayin!

I honestly don't think many women have given much thought to things from this perspective because i think a lot of stuff that men do is taken for granted

 

[Green Seas]

I am a woman and I am usually the one to make the first move when I'm interested in a guy. I'm rather aggressive in that department especially if the guy if too shy to do it. And I prefer to be in this position. I have a preference for shy guys that I can take advantage of and have my way with.

I will say that I think you are off in believing that women don't make the first move in this "age of equality". It has less to do with perceived gender roles and more to do with each individual's personality. There are aggressive women and then there are women that like to be pursued. There are men that like to be pursued and there are women that like to be the pursuer.
You might want to reconsider the type of woman you are after if this is a problem you are having. Go for warmer blood.

I would also like to say that nice guys do not finish last. Nice guys are usually dodging a bullet when they miss an opportunity with a girl who passes them by for a loud mouth jock type. Nice guys eventually meet nice girls. Like myself. And that's a huge win.

I have nothing to contribute here other than to say: I love you. :love:

 

[Vict]

Suffice to say that some do, some don't.

 

[Green Seas]

See below.

 

[Green Seas]

I think the other thing is that I want to feel pursued. If a guy can't make the first move then I feel like that would speak to what the relationship would be like later on, like maybe the guy was just "settling" for me if I make the first move and then a relationship develops. I feel like a guy who can't make the first move won't have the initiative to do special things for me later on, once the "spark" is more solidified into a relationship. Having been in a relationship where I took all the initiative really changed the way I view relationships. Things are much more transactional than I think most idealists would like to believe. Really, it seems like relationships should be about "love" but the truth is, usually the success of a relationship requires that "spark" just as much as it requires effort and hard work. It seems like many people happily put in little effort to relationships, and expect a big spark. I would for that reason alone, look at the future of a relationship (based on whether a guy approached me)- and place a lot of importance on their ability to approach me and make the first move, and what their first move was.

The guy who totally swept me off of my feet made very grand gestures indeed. But that's a different story.

I understand that if you've had bad experiences you personally may want to hold back a little on being the 'chaser' but why is the responsibility of romantic gestures on the man's shoulders in general? Wanting equal effort put into the relationship is great but always expecting the guy to do it suggests more than personal preference.

I think you're right about the transaction part. Unfortunately alot of the time we seem to think that because men may have a greater desire for sex, men have to 'earn' sex by being romantic, while women play the roles of auctioneers trying to get the most value in exchange. Guys who might not want to make the first move are not necessarily going to be bad partners. They may have misunderstood the woman's intentions, thought she was 'out of their league' or just too introverted to risk rejection. None of those suggest a lack of caring.

I know men and women aren't the same but men want to feel loved and valued too and women do enjoy sex as well, so what's wrong with dropping rules for who's allowed to do what? It would benefit everyone.

 

[SlowUpTake]

So in an age of equality why don't women make the first move?

Shouldn't women approach guys as much as guys approach women?

If guys always make the first move and if many guys are too shy or sensitive to make the first move then is that why 'nice guys always come last' because under such a cultural norm the more assertive and aggressive males would be the ones approaching women and therefore having the most success?

What do people think about this issue?

It is obvious that men are not equal to women in this regard, Women are privileged.
I wonder what other ways they are privileged.