This thread is really an extension of the 'is feminism outdated' thread
In that other thread i posted a talk by warren farrel in which he raises the point that women have the power of refusal over men who are expected to make the first move
I thought it was an intersting train of thought
I also agree with him that the idea of 'power' needs to be redefined. For example is it 'powerful' to be a slave to work all your life and to not get a good work/life balance? Whats the point of being money rich but time poor for example? Women, farrel points out, are often better at gettting a good balance and are therefore he argues more empowered then many men
This is a trap many men are caught in perhaps due to cultural pressures and conditioning and i think it needs a re-think
I raised farrels point about women having refusal power over men in that thread but no one picked up on it! So i thought i'd give it it's own thread
I've found it interesting to hear peoples views and particularly the womens views. Many appreciate that it is a tough aspect of the male experience but at the samer time they like it that way
I think there are others areas that would be worth exploring relating to these issues fior example the female commentator that someone else posted a video of in that thread said that women dressed to impress other women NOT men. Well i agree with her. But i would say that how we act and dress is a form of communication. We also know that men are visually stimulated so if a woman dresses in a sexy way to impress other women she should i think be aware that she is also going to have an impact on men who might missinterprete her physical communication as a signal that she is single and looking for male attention
This is a problem when men have to make the first move because there are now lots of women putting out sexyness signals that men will interprete a certain way and yet when the man goes to make a move the woman acts all indignant and says ''leave me alone and stop harassing me'' (whilst possibly lambasting men for being sex crazed pigs or whatever)
@
charlene raises this point about female dress above
This issue blew up into the mainstream not that long ago when a police chief said that women should dress more conservatively when walking around at night lest they draw negative attention from males; this caused a massive backlash from women who marched in protest claiming their right to dress like 'sluts'!
Clearly they hadn't stopped to consider whether they should be dressing like sluts in the first place
men know that they shouldn't dress certain ways particularly when walking through certain areas for example in my county if you walk through the wrong area wearing certain football team colours then you are liable to get your head kicked in or be stabbed so i'm not sure why women seem to think they should get all these special rules to apply just for them whilst at the same time droning on about 'equality'
I also think this recent feminist view that women have been oppressed for centuries is nonsense. They are failing to look at the historic context. It's only recently that we switched to a 'service economy' where jobs have become suitable for women. Before that the work during the agricultural and industrial revolutions was dirty, dangerous and brutal and i think the women at home managing the household were probably appreciative of the graft their fella was putting in to support the family down the mines, or in the fields, docks or factories
I think if you went back in time and asked those women if they thought they were being 'oppressed' i think they'd laugh!
The service economy has provided a space in the work environment for women but there is a problem with that situation. It is not a real economy...it is a house of cards because it is not built on producing things like a 'manufacturing economy'. It is built on debt and money printing neither of which are sustainable and unfortunatly the economic problems we are now seeing which are only going to deepen are the chickens coming home to roost on the service economy
There is however a ray of light in that mechanisation is advancing apace which could mean that the brutal aspect of work can be carried out by machines meaning we only need apply brain power which enables both men and women to work on a level playing field as equals
There is a danger however with mechanisation in that if we do not manage to restructure our political and economic set up and decentralise power down to the people then the centralised power people will use machines to subjugate humanity NOT to liberate them from work
Thi is why as we enter the mechanisation (robotisation and computerisation) age we must, also as well as creating a workplace environment favourable to both men and women, take the power of decsion making back of the power elites and place it in the hands of the common man and woman
But i strongly feel that as we transition to this new phase in order to achieve what i've outlined above women must not allow themselves to be manipulated into feeling persecuted by men when in fact men have been breaking their backs for centuries for the good of our species as a whole and they have certainly not been enjoying an easier life than women
What do you mean by oppressed?
I think many people all around the world have been oppressed for a long time, and still are. In many societies, there was an aristocratic class, and then those classes that served them. For a long chunk of modern and ancient history, some people were seen as inherently inferior to other people. And women were seen as inferior to men. Many of the men were seen as chattel and property. And women were seen as chattel and property in many parts of the world. Many people around the world were not allowed to vote, contribute to government, own land, inherit land, or have access to education. Many women were not allowed to vote, contribute to government, own land, inherit, or have access to education. Women and men in many parts of the world had no recourse against things like harassment, rape, and violence. Many people were not allowed to live free and find their own way, but were forced to serve the system that they had been born into...were owned by.
These cultures do not reflect the inherent state of humanity, but what happens when we live in a society where some people believe that they are inherently superior to other people, and other people believe that they are probably inherently inferior to the people that have subjugated them. This is what happens when people are enculturalised to believe that power comes from fear, taking and separating, rather than understanding and cooperating.
Currently, there are still people that believe men and women are not equal. That men and women are 'opposites', have conflicting agendas, and that relationships between men and women will be fraught with inevitable power plays, and that relationships are where two people collaborate, yet compete with each other simultaneously.
Some people believe that people are basically animals that are controlled by their survival instincts. Some people believe that humans are inherently evil or flawed. Some people believe that the world will never be a better place, and will only get worse. Some people believe that life itself is pointless, yet will desperately and robotically continue to survive until they die. Some people believe that they have no power or personal responsibility. Some people believe that they are worthless. Some people believe everything that their aristocracy tells them. Some people never question why things are done, and if they can be done differently. Some people will loyally defend the hand that feed them and beats them , because that is all they know. Some people only want to hear what they already think. Some people have a desperate need to be superior. Some people always think they are inferior. Some people are afraid, afraid to die, afraid to live, afraid of life, of other people, and the world itself.
People...because we form our reality from the inside out...will be attracted to cultural beliefs that are similar to their own inner state. Just because a lot of people hold a certain view doesn't mean the view is correct, inherent, natural, healthy, or effective. People and ideas are popular not because they are correct or make sense, but because they appeal to other people that hold similar views. Popular does not equate to right. Most of the time, especially in an unhealthy society where many people are sick and miserable, popular equates to unhealthy.
There are many things we continuously take for granted, that are not necessarily 'real' or permanant states. We talk about concepts like 'men' and 'women', and 'relationships', but what do we really mean when we say these things?
Is there a typical man, woman, or relationship? Would it be an approximation we could come to by averaging it out? The mean, mode, or median perhaps?
We talk about these concepts as if they are real permanent things, but most of our ideas are based on changing data and perceptions.
I think that currently, many of our cultures and societies are unhealthy. And that many people are unhealthy. And that many relationships are unhealthy.
Many people cannot tell the difference between Love and fear. And many people believe that answers and reality come from external sources, rather than the internal source. Many people do not trust themselves, their mind...their spirit, their life.
Can men and women put their humanity before their sexual organs? I believe that they most certainly can, and would do, if they were not so caught up in patterns of fear and cultural conditioning.
It is hard to say 'what women want' or 'what men want'. Its hard to know what other people want. It is easier and much more practical to work out what i want for myself, on a personal level. Know what you want, and why.
I certainly do not pretend to speak for all women, I speak only for myself.
I dont think that my personal beliefs and views are shared by many other women. In fact, I know that many women, and many men disagree with my beliefs and views.
I say this from the bottom of my heart, I am literally in love with the majority of the women on this forum. Truly. I have never before encountered so many women that I relate to, that I feel I can connect to, understand, and sincerely learn from. They have made me fall in love with myself and the state of being a 'woman'.
But generally speaking, I don't know that many women that I think are similar to me, or that I relate to on a life level.
My personal and humble opinion is that the given 'approacher' in a society is likely to be more empowered.
I dont know if men would really like to live in a society that was reversed, where women did the majority of the approaching.
In my opinion, an evolved society would treat 'approaching' as a non issue, and both sexes would feel comfortable to communicate and connect without fear.
When I was younger, I went out to 'town' a lot with my friends from several difference circles. We would go to bars, night clubs, concerts, cultural events etc. My objective when going out was simply experience. I am curious and like to meet people and see places, do fun and weird intersting things. I made a lot of friends during this time, and very occasionally, had sexual dalliances. Some of my friends had other objectives, and they would get dressed up to the nines and literally be out to scope out guys for flirting and relationships. I cant adequately describe how it feels to be in a group of girls and have a group of guys trying to pick them up. My best friend is a real traffic stopping beauty, and she was one of the worst flirts I have ever encountered (isn't like that any more). It was my self appointed job on some nights to ensure she and other girls would get home safely. I would watch in morbid fascination and horror while she and others would stand there in subtle obvious poses and wait to get noticed. She would get increasingly agitated, sad, and bitchy if she wasn't approached, and assumed she hadnt worn the right dress or something. There would be girls in the same painful to watch position all around the room. Or otherwise, she would give a coy smile, and a guy or guys would approach. They would immediately engage in brain numbing want to throw myself of a cliff in boredom dull saccharine cheesy flirty small talk and...bragging...i drive this car, I bought this gadget, I work out everyday.....The guy would offer to buy drinks. Sometimes they bought drinks for the whole group. She would let them buy her drink after drink, flirt painfully, and then...one of the following things would likely occur:
-they would flirt, she would get increasingly drunk and clumsy, sometimes sick and throwing up, and I would drag her away before anyone could advance on her.
-they would make increasingly sexual advances that she would fend off. They would get very annoyed, because they had just wasted time, money, and effort (wasted their night, some said) trying to ply a girl that they had thought had been a 'sure thing' with alcohol.
Some people see buying a drink as buying sexual favours, and in some cases and social circles...that is true. (And some go straight for for the kill and spike drinks)
- she would reciprocate the sexual advances and they would stay together that night, she would try to maintain his attention while glaring at other attractive girls near by. They would kiss goodnight, and then she would wait the next day, hoping he called her.
- -she would reciprocate the sexual advances and would leave with the guy. Occasionally, I would hear from her later, and she would ask us to find her because the guy had left, or she was other wise stranded and lonely. Other times i heard from her the next day, and she would wait anxiously for him to call her. And get very upset if he didnt.
Obviously all pubs, clubs, and women and men are not like this. Many are not. But I have seen my fair share of this sleazy scene. Women all dressed up trying to attract attention, trying to stand out to compete with their 'competition'. Men walking around strutting like bloody peacocks and bison lol trying to appear cool and suave and dominant. Walk into the women's bathroom, find someone throwing up in the toilet, some girl crying with girls standing around saying something like' he's not worth it', a couple having sex in the disabled toilet, a line of women repairing their makeup in the mirror hogging the sink space while I wait to wash my hands.
There is one particular night I remember vividly because it was the last one I had with particular friends. That sleazy scene had played out to the very extreme. One of my friends had been throwing up and another had her date leave with another girl. A fight had broken out with some guys, and some girl purposefully threw her drink over another girl's dress. I was bored shitless and disgusted by the sorry state of humanity I had witnessed...just wanted to go home so I could relax and finally enjoy my night with a shower and a cup of tea. The sick one was cold, because she had obviously dressed without first consulting her common sense and the weather report, lol unlike some other people. I had to give her my beloved cardigan to wear because her vagina was clearly freezing and my other friend was limping around like a hobbled horse in her shoes invented by some arsehole that hated feet and did not understand the nature of walking. We were waiting at the taxi rank, when lo and behold the friends of the guy that had abandoned his date with my friend appear. I had known them from school. They made pointless and annoying small talk, I complained about how stupid the nightclub was and how I was never going there again, and my friend tried to put on a brave whimpering face, and I realised that there was spew on my cardigan. Then one of them says ( and i am entirely serious here, there is no exaggeration) 'you know charlene, if you started wearing some nicer clothes, straightened you hair, got some high heels and did your make up, I think you'd would be hot and better guys would like you than your gay up himself boyfriend'. I was lost for words....snorted...and just stared at him in my best evil glare until he pissed off. And then I could only laugh...the places and things we do for the sake of our friends sometimes.
I think the way things are sometimes...it has the vibe of a meat market. In some contexts, the women are the goods, and the men are the shoppers. What would you rather, be the chooser, or the chosen? Be proactive and go forward to what you want, or stand back and wait and hope for the best. Waiting sounds crap...i dont really understand why someone would wait and see, if they could just get up and know for sure.
Who gets more choice in this context? And within that system, what about women that arent attractive? And men that are shy?
If it was reversed, it would be just as ugly and hideous and stupid as it is now.
Connecting with people doesn't have to be about sales and marketing and haggling and negotiating.
How can good relationships and happy people exist in that cultural matrix?
Isnt it possible to just connect? Not worry about what women and men are supposed to do, forget the games and the power plays? Just be people that are confident to take their own lives into their hands. Be people first before everything else. Follow the heart and go with the chemistry. The only way to get to know a person properly is to interact with them. If the interaction doesnt go well than the only thing you know for sure is that now you know for sure. Wasted opportunities and regrets are a lot more annoying than feeling a bit embarassed and have your pride momentarily thwarted, and really, it doesnt even have to be embarassing if people choose not to see it in that way.
Ideally gender shouldn't even be an issue here, and it only is because it has been constructed and manufactured that way.
And I really do think that the positions of the planets Mars and Venus in an individual's birth astrological chart have a lot to do with how he/she approaches friendship and sex.
