Why don't women make the first move?

Yeah i agree with you...i agree with a lot of what people have been saying in this thread

And i hope that this thread will be a stake in the heart to this feminist idea that men and women are exactly the same and that 'equality' is even possible in a total sense

The male experience is very different from the female experience

So that then has to be the foundation to build off when moving forward from here in discussions about 'equality' and how society should be constructed

Things are not always as the 'womens studies' textbooks would have us believe

I think when we are discussing these sorts of matters there should be some appreciation from the men about the challenges that are unique to women and there should be some appreciation from women for the challenges that are unique to men because we aren't exactly the same and each gender has its own struggles


You ever notice that men and women shift into traditional male and female roles as they get older even if they used to believe in modern day feminism? Like life does not give a shit about your views. If you are a woman who just had a baby and holding a newborn; the last thing she wants is to do is go out and put bacon on the table; instead she needs the support and care from her partner and provider to contribute and support. Yes women can do it all if need be and i've seen it all over but at a great cost.
 
As for casual dating, it does not matter but in a serious relationship, one with the potential for permanence and child birth, it is the woman who is more at risk. Even if there is no possibility of children the fact remains that male/female unions are based on reproduction. Pregnancy and child birth always results in loss of freedom for the woman and can result in death, her investment is physical and permanent whereas the man can walk away at any time and bear only emotional marks from bringing a child into the world. The woman rightly needs to have it demonstrated to her that her potential partner is willing to take a risk. That is why women mostly require to be asked. A formal declaration of intention by the man to the woman is a normal and beneficial form.

Those who think that an introverted man is disinclined to make such a declaration misunderstand the nature of introversion.

Any man who believes that the extroverted male has an advantage over the introverted man in winning the affections and loyalties of a woman is a fool.

Ok that's one more voice testifying that men and women aren't exactly the same

I do disagree about men just walking away from childbirth though as they are as much emotionally bound to their child as the mother not to mention the legal implications (I think you're in danger of invalidating the male experience there but never mind)
 
Just as a note first of all, equality is not the same as identical. As far as I'm aware men are still not able to give birth or breastfeed and I'm not aware of anybody trying to make that happen.

Back to the question asked, this idea of men and women asking each other out has been on my mind lately since I'm heading into the dating world for the first time and I'm so inexperienced I'm trying to get an idea of how it works.

First, I probably would never make the first move myself with some guy I didn't already know quite well but I don't think that's because I'm a woman but more because I'm kind of reserved and can have a difficult time approaching people in general. I'm even hesitant to go ask a question to the person at the desk at my gym so I'm unlikely to approach one of the guys there, even it I've seen him looking at me.

Secondly, from asking questions and reading up on this, it seems that when men approach a woman they are basically saying 'I'm attracted to you and would like to have to have sex with you, and if you happen to be a nice person and we get along well and it leads to something more than that would just be a bonus...
On the other hand, although I can't speak for any other woman (and I know many who are not hesitant at all, but they are all extroverted and usually alpha-females), but for myself if I were to approach a man I would be thinking 'I am attracted to you but I have no idea if I want to have sex with you or even kiss you, I just want to see if I like you as a person and feel secure and comfortable around you and hopefully this will lead to more'... but I'm afraid that the guy would be thinking 'she approached me because she wants to have sex with me' which would give him the wrong idea.

Thirdly, I do feel bad for men who need to approach and get turned down. I can't imagine it's easy, but at the same time people in general would all be much happier if we didn't worry so much about our egos and just tried things and didn't take it so personally if the result isn't what we want. I met a guy recently who is very extroverted and friendly with everybody he meets (I think he's an esfp) but he admitted to me that he's afraid to approach women that he's interested in which totally shocked me because he seems to talk to everybody. I keep thinking that in a way wouldn't it be worse to miss out on a chance to be with a great person than to have to be shot down many times before that happens? I think we all need to get over being afraid and take more chances (including me :) ).
 
Just as a note first of all, equality is not the same as identical. As far as I'm aware men are still not able to give birth or breastfeed and I'm not aware of anybody trying to make that happen.

Back to the question asked, this idea of men and women asking each other out has been on my mind lately since I'm heading into the dating world for the first time and I'm so inexperienced I'm trying to get an idea of how it works.

First, I probably would never make the first move myself with some guy I didn't already know quite well but I don't think that's because I'm a woman but more because I'm kind of reserved and can have a difficult time approaching people in general. I'm even hesitant to go ask a question to the person at the desk at my gym so I'm unlikely to approach one of the guys there, even it I've seen him looking at me.

Secondly, from asking questions and reading up on this, it seems that when men approach a woman they are basically saying 'I'm attracted to you and would like to have to have sex with you, and if you happen to be a nice person and we get along well and it leads to something more than that would just be a bonus...
On the other hand, although I can't speak for any other woman (and I know many who are not hesitant at all, but they are all extroverted and usually alpha-females), but for myself if I were to approach a man I would be thinking 'I am attracted to you but I have no idea if I want to have sex with you or even kiss you, I just want to see if I like you as a person and feel secure and comfortable around you and hopefully this will lead to more'... but I'm afraid that the guy would be thinking 'she approached me because she wants to have sex with me' which would give him the wrong idea.

Thirdly, I do feel bad for men who need to approach and get turned down. I can't imagine it's easy, but at the same time people in general would all be much happier if we didn't worry so much about our egos and just tried things and didn't take it so personally if the result isn't what we want. I met a guy recently who is very extroverted and friendly with everybody he meets (I think he's an esfp) but he admitted to me that he's afraid to approach women that he's interested in which totally shocked me because he seems to talk to everybody. I keep thinking that in a way wouldn't it be worse to miss out on a chance to be with a great person than to have to be shot down many times before that happens? I think we all need to get over being afraid and take more chances (including me :) ).

Sorry to be blunt because your post has been pretty diplomatic but there is a danger of you invalidating the male experience here...(by saying we should all just man up and not worry about our egos....easy for a woman to say!)

It's ok to say: ''i acknowledge that it must be tough for guys to have to make the first move; i can appreciate what a struggle that must be for them'' and leave it at that....there doesn't need to be any qualification

Just a simple recognition that guys have to find a courage in that area that women don't

Equally guys can then acknowledge and appreciate that women have to find a courage in childbirth

and so on and so on
 
Sorry to be blunt because your post has been pretty diplomatic but there is a danger of you invalidating the male experience here...(by saying we should all just man up and not worry about our egos....easy for a woman to say!)

It's ok to say: ''i acknowledge that it must be tough for guys to have to make the first move; i can appreciate what a struggle that must be for them'' and leave it at that....there doesn't need to be any qualification

Just a simple recognition that guys have to find a courage in that area that women don't

Equally guys can then acknowledge and appreciate that women have to find a courage in childbirth

and so on and so on

I'm not invalidating anybody's experience. Nobody has to approach anybody. It's a choice that each of us make to do it or not, to take the chance or not... if I don't approach anybody than I am risking that nobody will approach me either and that I will be alone for the rest of my life. We all have to live with the consequences or our choices but I'm not sure that we should take 'rejection' as seriously as we do. I've learned to be much friendlier to strangers and people that I don't know well in general because I've figured out that even if they don't answer me or act in a negative way it's not a reflection of me as a person and I have enough self-esteem to let it go. I'm just saying that everybody in general would be happier if we took that approach with people in general but obviously the stakes are higher when it comes to approaching the opposite sex because you are interested. I will never say that I know what it's like to be a man because I don't but I know what it's like to be a human being who is sensitive to how others perceive me but I have learned to overcome it to a certain degree and I am much happier and healthier for it.
 
I'm not invalidating anybody's experience. Nobody has to approach anybody.

Boom you just did it again!

People DO have to approach each other or the species dies out

The guy has to find the courage to go over to the gal......why can't you give guys this?

It's the feminism isn't it? More contagious than ebola. But don't worry it can be cured.....with a dose of common sense

It's a choice that each of us make to do it or not, to take the chance or not... if I don't approach anybody than I am risking that nobody will approach me either and that I will be alone for the rest of my life. We all have to live with the consequences or our choices but I'm not sure that we should take 'rejection' as seriously as we do.

Thats cos 'rejection' is not generally part of the female experience cos its the guy that has to make the move!

I've learned to be much friendlier to strangers and people that I don't know well in general because I've figured out that even if they don't answer me or act in a negative way it's not a reflection of me as a person and I have enough self-esteem to let it go. I'm just saying that everybody in general would be happier if we took that approach with people in general but obviously the stakes are higher when it comes to approaching the opposite sex because you are interested. I will never say that I know what it's like to be a man because I don't but I know what it's like to be a human being who is sensitive to how others perceive me but I have learned to overcome it to a certain degree and I am much happier and healthier for it.

Ok so do you accept that making a move is a burden that lies mostly at the door of men? (and with it goes the burden of rejection)
 
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Boom you just did it again!

People DO have to approach each other or the species dies out

The guy has to find the courage to go over to the gal......why can't you give guys this?

It's the feminism isn't it? More contagious than ebola. But don't worry it can be cured.....with a dose of common sense



Thats cos 'rejection' is not generally part of the female experience cos its the guy that has to make the move!



Ok so do you accept that making a move is a burden that lies mostly at the door of men?

Lol, I'm not too worried about the species dying out. I'm not looking to have kids so that part is not really crossing my mind.
I don't know if I see the position of being the 'asker' as a burden but if you want to look at it that way you certainly can. There are advantages and disadvantages to both posittions. I don't like putting people into very specific boxes because I think we are all individuals and all have different outlooks and ways to handle life situations but it does seem to be that men are the ones to do the asking out more. Women who don't want to approach men also risk that they are not going to be approached or not be approached by the men they are interested in, that is a risk they take. What do you make of the comment I made about being concerned that if I approach men they will think that I am saying that I want to have sex with them? Do you think that is a valid concern that women may have?
 
Lol, I'm not too worried about the species dying out. I'm not looking to have kids so that part is not really crossing my mind.
I don't know if I see the position of being the 'asker' as a burden but if you want to look at it that way you certainly can.

God dammit!

YOU GO AND DO IT THEN! Go on...man up princess...go and approach a guy and ask him out or im calling hypocrisy!


There are advantages and disadvantages to both posittions. I don't like putting people into very specific boxes because I think we are all individuals and all have different outlooks and ways to handle life situations but it does seem to be that men are the ones to do the asking out more. Women who don't want to approach men also risk that they are not going to be approached or not be approached by the men they are interested in, that is a risk they take. What do you make of the comment I made about being concerned that if I approach men they will think that I am saying that I want to have sex with them? Do you think that is a valid concern that women may have?

What do you want me to do demonise the male sexual instinct?

maybe then you could print off the words and hang it in your feminist trophy cabinet with all the severed pairs of balls you've taken off your vanquished foes in the battle of the sexes?
 
God dammit!

YOU GO AND DO IT THEN! Go on...man up princess...go and approach a guy and ask him out or im calling hypocrisy!




What do you want me to do demonise the male sexual instinct?

maybe then you could print off the words and hang it in your feminist trophy cabinet with all the severed pairs of balls you've taken off your vanquished foes in the battle of the sexes?

You so don't know me! I have not vanquished any foes in my lifetime and I do not demonise any sexual instinct. I was simply asking your honest opinion on what seems to be the accepted view of the difference between how men and women approach the opposite sex. All I was doing is explaining how I feel about it. I am afraid of giving off the wrong idea to some man if I were to approach him. I may be totally wrong on this, I have no idea, but that is the impression that is being given to me. I don't want to give a man the wrong idea. I love sex and can't wait to have it again but I don't think I am personally capable of having it with anybody that I do not fully trust and feel very comfortable with, if I have those two conditions then the sex will be way more enjoyable for both of us than if I am feeling insecure and unsure of the person I am with. It is less about demonizing any perceived idea about how men are as not wanting to give off the wrong signal or even give out false hopes. I was just being honest as to my thought process regarding this. If you want to take it and twist it into something else than you are missing the opportunity to have a thoughtful and honest discussion about the differences between the sexes. I am open to hearing whatever you have to say on the matter and I wish you wouldn't twist my thoughts into something that they are not.
 
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You so don't know me! I have not vanquished any foes in my lifetime and I do not demonise any sexual instinct. I was simply asking your honest opinion on what seems to be the accepted view of the difference between how men and women approach the opposite sex. All I was doing is explaining how I feel about it. I am afraid of giving off the wrong idea to some man if I were to approach him. I may be totally wrong on this, I have no idea, but that is the impression that is being given to me. I don't want to give a man the wrong idea. I love sex and can't wait to have it again but I don't think I am personally capable of having it with anybody that I do not fully trust and feel very comfortable with, if I have those two conditions then the sex will be way more enjoyable for both of us than if I am feeling insecure and unsure of the person I am with. It is less about demonizing any perceived idea about how men are as not wanting to give off the wrong signal or even give out false hopes. I was just being honest as to my thought process regarding this. If you want to take it and twist it into something else than you are missing the opportunity to have a thoughtful and honest discussion about the differences between the sexes. I am open to hearing whatever you have to say on the matter and I wish you wouldn't twist my thoughts into something that they are not.

Cool cool ***puts down his anti-feminism silver crucifix***

It's gonna vary with the guy isn't it?

You might meet the sweetest guy whose actually thinking about how much he wants share his love with you

Equally you might meet a sex starved horn-fest on legs....

But hey...even the sex starved horn-fests on legs are still human beings with their own needs

Appearances are going to be important for diferent reasons for different guys....some guys might be attracted to a kind face whilst others might be looking for their 'type' or whatever.

I don't think all guys are thinking about sex when they approach a woman

That said...if intimacy is valuable to us as humans then should we be ashamed of thinking about it? Is it something to be guilty about to have such thoughts?

Would you prefer that a man never think about sex when he looks at you?

Wheres the happy medium?
 
Cool cool ***puts down his anti-feminism silver crucifix***

It's gonna vary with the guy isn't it?

You might meet the sweetest guy whose actually thinking about how much he wants share his love with you

Equally you might meet a sex starved horn-fest on legs....

But hey...even the sex starved horn-fests on legs are still human beings with their own needs

Appearances are going to be important for diferent reasons for different guys....some guys might be attracted to a kind face whilst others might be looking for their 'type' or whatever.

I don't think all guys are thinking about sex when they approach a woman

That said...if intimacy is valuable to us as humans then should we be ashamed of thinking about it? Is it something to be guilty about to have such thoughts?

Would you prefer that a man never think about sex when he looks at you?

Wheres the happy medium?

Thank you for putting that down. I appreciate it.

I don't know where the happy medium is. I don't mind men thinking about sex when they look at me what I mind is if a man thinks that I might 'owe' him anything if I show any attention or interest in him. I know probably most men are smart enough to know better but unfortunately too many don't seem to.

I have no idea what it's like to be a man and to feel like I have to make the first move to try to hook up with somebody but I would suggest that you have no idea what it's like to be a woman and have to deal with the 'starved horn-dogs on legs'. It can be quite unpleasant and at times even scary. It can be difficult to discern between those horn-dogs, those men who may be descent enough but maybe still too eager for me, and those that are probably respectful enough of me for me to feel comfortable with them. I am definitely not to be used as an example of what the average woman is but I am just explaining my personal view on the issue, no doubt other women may have other opinions and some will have similar opinions, it's all individual. It's the same with men, some of them are absolutely amazing human beings and I would be lucky to have the opportunity to spend time with them and other ones I would be much better off to stear clear of. The problem is that it's not always obvious unless you already know them somewhat. That is why I would probably not make the first move unless I already knew the man enough to have an inkling that he's a descent guy. Just to clarify, a descent guy can have just as much 'sexual urges' as the other guys (I would prefer that he does personally) but he also knows that a woman doesn't 'owe' him anything just because she gives him some attention and he is respectful enough to wait until she is ready to move on those sexual urges. If he is that guy in my book he'll reap the rewards when the time is right and he'll know it was worth the wait ;).
 
I'm not meaning giving cues to mean making the first move

Cues can be a difficult thing for people to read sometimes

No doubt there are many men who have made a move on a woman only for her to say that she smiles because she is friendly and she smiles at everyone and that she wasn't smiling at him to mean anything special

By making the first move i mean getting up and going over and breaking the ice.

You may have made eyes at a guy but who made the first move?

By your definition then muir- I have gotten up, gone over and opened a conversation with a man I was interested in. And I have been approached by men in this way as well. I actually believe the "moves" (or perhaps the delicious energy) begin long before anyone gets up and breaks the ice. :)
 
Any man who believes that the extroverted male has an advantage over the introverted man in winning the affections and loyalties of a woman is a fool.

This woman wholeheartedly agrees! :)
 
I honestly don't think the question should be so concentrated on "why a woman doesn't make the first move?". If anything, the better question is... "How do you think chemistry happens?" Because despite gender and all that hoopla.... at the end of the day, it all comes down to the attraction.
 
I honestly don't think the question should be so concentrated on "why a woman doesn't make the first move?". If anything, the better question is... "How do you think chemistry happens?" Because despite gender and all that hoopla.... at the end of the day, it all comes down to the attraction.

Yes yes yes bionic! I agree...

The attraction, the energy, the chemistry... yup!
 
Thank you for putting that down. I appreciate it.

I don't know where the happy medium is. I don't mind men thinking about sex when they look at me what I mind is if a man thinks that I might 'owe' him anything if I show any attention or interest in him. I know probably most men are smart enough to know better but unfortunately too many don't seem to.

I have no idea what it's like to be a man and to feel like I have to make the first move to try to hook up with somebody but I would suggest that you have no idea what it's like to be a woman and have to deal with the 'starved horn-dogs on legs'. It can be quite unpleasant and at times even scary. It can be difficult to discern between those horn-dogs, those men who may be descent enough but maybe still too eager for me, and those that are probably respectful enough of me for me to feel comfortable with them. I am definitely not to be used as an example of what the average woman is but I am just explaining my personal view on the issue, no doubt other women may have other opinions and some will have similar opinions, it's all individual. It's the same with men, some of them are absolutely amazing human beings and I would be lucky to have the opportunity to spend time with them and other ones I would be much better off to stear clear of. The problem is that it's not always obvious unless you already know them somewhat. That is why I would probably not make the first move unless I already knew the man enough to have an inkling that he's a descent guy. Just to clarify, a descent guy can have just as much 'sexual urges' as the other guys (I would prefer that he does personally) but he also knows that a woman doesn't 'owe' him anything just because she gives him some attention and he is respectful enough to wait until she is ready to move on those sexual urges. If he is that guy in my book he'll reap the rewards when the time is right and he'll know it was worth the wait ;).

How terrible for a guy tothink that sex is a part of a relationship! How terrible for him to think that it might be 'owed' when people commit to each other! (to have and to hold)

So you want the guy to think about sex when he looks at you but you want him to pretend like he doesn't and you want the guy to be strong enough that he makes the first move but at the same time you want to call the shots

Do you want a guy to notice you but if he looks a second too long at you he's a creep?

You will use sex as a reward if the guy is a good little boy but only when you decide that he's been a good little boy for long enough

And once you are in a relationship you will decide when the sex happens and if you don't want it but he does then he cannot go and get it anywhere else...he must just be a good little boy and wait for you to turn the sex tap on

All this feminist stuff about women being oppressed is horsemanure; women control many aspects of our lives and that's the truth
 
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By your definition then muir- I have gotten up, gone over and opened a conversation with a man I was interested in. And I have been approached by men in this way as well. I actually believe the "moves" (or perhaps the delicious energy) begin long before anyone gets up and breaks the ice. :)

Sure there are cues but someone has to man up and make a move and most of the time that falls to the guy
 
I honestly don't think the question should be so concentrated on "why a woman doesn't make the first move?". If anything, the better question is... "How do you think chemistry happens?" Because despite gender and all that hoopla.... at the end of the day, it all comes down to the attraction.

This thread is not narrowly confined to the title...if you want to expand the discussion to include what you've mentioned please do!
 
How terrible for a guy tothink that sex is a part of a relationship! How terrible for him to think that it might be 'owed' when people commit to each other! (to have and to hold)

So you want the guy to think about sex when he looks at you but you want him to pretend like he doesn't and you want the guy to be strong enough that he makes the first move but at the same time you want to call the shots

Do you want a guy to notice you but if he looks a second too long at you he's a creep?

You will use sex as a reward if the guy is a good little boy but only when you decide that he's been a good little boy for long enough

And once you are in a relationship you will decide when the sex happens and if you don't want it but he does then he cannot go and get it anywhere else...he must just be a good little boy and wait for you to turn the sex tap on

All this feminist stuff about women being oppressed is horsemanure; women control many aspects of our lives and that's the truth

You seem to have a difficult time with the concept that I may want to figure out if I really like a guy before I want to have sex, what's wrong with that? I can't speak for anybody else, I'm sure some women use it for control but personally for me it's more about comfort. I do not play games or withhold sex when I'm in a relationship but you were asking about making the first move and asking a guy out. Are you saying that if I ask a guy out I have to have sex him even if he turns to not be a nice guy?
 
You seem to have a difficult time with the concept that I may want to figure out if I really like a guy before I want to have sex, what's wrong with that? I can't speak for anybody else, I'm sure some women use it for control but personally for me it's more about comfort. I do not play games or withhold sex when I'm in a relationship but you were asking about making the first move and asking a guy out. Are you saying that if I ask a guy out I have to have sex him even if he turns to not be a nice guy?

No i'm just trying to make women see things from a slightly different perspective

There's been some feminist chat on the forum recently with a flavour of persecution and i'm trying to point out that women are not as dissempowered as some of them try to make out

I believe i have demonstrated in this thread that women not only control the equality tap but they also control the sex tap; they are therefore not powerless victims within the system

In fact when you really break a lot of these issues down it seems that it is men who get the raw deal
 
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