Corona / Wuhan virus

But if you research a great depression a lot of people really suffered. It does matter. I'm not concerned about money I'm concerned about the long term health of our entire society
This was a shitty time indeed, but it was also a time when people remembered that helping people was a good thing. It was a time when people learned to get by with what they had. They learned the value of saving and rationing and fixing vs throwing stuff away.

I don't disagree with you here, but I do feel it could be a very good thing if we learned some of these things again.
 
Problem is no one is smart enough to count on ALL the factors to make their dream a reality and thus those dreams become just that, dreams
Just so we're on the same page here... My dreams are the only dreams that matters. I have good dreams. I've been told I have the best dreams. People say to me all the time, that my dreams are... how do I come up with these dreams? They just don't get it. I've been dreaming a long time. The people are amazed when they hear of my... they are genius dreams. Great for everyone. Everyone benefits from my genius dreams. And I just say... I tell them, I'm a really good dreamer. They come from my head. I don't know who these people are. They just come up to me when I'm doing... I'm eating corn flakes. The corn flakes I eat are so good. They come from a company. I get them for free. As a gift. People gift me things. I'll play golf and someone I don't know walks up and hands me bowling shoes. For no reason. They say I do a good job. It's amazing what they say I do. They're so happy with what I do for them. And everyone is happy.
 
I think this will always be a contentious topic, do we save who we can now, or do we look forward and see possibilities that may or may not occur.

Do we keep distancing to save people NOW, at the risk of having a second virus wave come through in the FUTURE that is mutated and possibly causing a pandemic where people die in an even greater number

Do we keep the economy at a minimal level to save people NOW, at the risk that in the FUTURE we put the whole world into a depression which could kill many more (great depression deaths from starvation in US were estimated at 7 million (I'm open to being corrected - I just typed it into google))

Then there is the plight of the individual versus the well-being of society as a whole. Do you view this from the pain experienced by one person (or personally affected) or view it from how society as a whole will survive?

I think this is where we are seeing so many points of view. Those in the front line (nurses doctors etc) have to look at the now - look to the individual.

Those of us not in the front line can be "back seat drivers" and take a view of looking to the future and not seeing the effect of the virus (until it hits them personally) make their decisions based on statistics and data.

By the way, not agreeing or disagreeing with any points depending on from which point you view them. Empathy is not just about feeling other people's emotions, it about seeing it from another person's point of view as well.
 
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Like Trump supporters I don't think SJWs want people to die or the US to fall.

And those that do would regret it very quickly if it happened. A world where the US collapses is basically a new Dark Age and all social and technological progress resets to 0.

This is the problem with both sides painting a picture of the 'enemy' that is an exaggeration of all the worst aspects.

Everyone wants a better US. Everyone has different ideas about what that looks like.

Problem is no one is smart enough to count on ALL the factors to make their dream a reality and thus those dreams become just that, dreams.

Trump dreams. SJW dreams. Both unrealistic, both dangerous if pushed to the extreme.

Which is why everyone needs to come together and find a comproimise that isn't perfect or anything anyone completely wants, but is good enough for people to live with.

Personally I am more neutral to slightly disproving of Trump but no where to extent that I see people spewing hate, not even Bush gotten that much and people hated him for valid reasons. Centrists and those outside of the loop are watching all this and seeing the obvious that where things have gotten doesn't bode well for the future and "woke" is really another cult. I am very doubtful these people want there to be others of difference instead are forcing everyone else to adapt to their lines of thinking or be done away with including on the job and it is particularly bad in education. In the end the collapse is going to happen as society is too fractured and people are unwilling to seek much less work things out in a balanced manner.
 
Just so we're on the same page here... My dreams are the only dreams that matters. I have good dreams. I've been told I have the best dreams. People say to me all the time, that my dreams are... how do I come up with these dreams? They just don't get it. I've been dreaming a long time. The people are amazed when they hear of my... they are genius dreams. Great for everyone. Everyone benefits from my genius dreams. And I just say... I tell them, I'm a really good dreamer. They come from my head. I don't know who these people are. They just come up to me when I'm doing... I'm eating corn flakes. The corn flakes I eat are so good. They come from a company. I get them for free. As a gift. People gift me things. I'll play golf and someone I don't know walks up and hands me bowling shoes. For no reason. They say I do a good job. It's amazing what they say I do. They're so happy with what I do for them. And everyone is happy.

 
Just so we're on the same page here... My dreams are the only dreams that matters. I have good dreams. I've been told I have the best dreams. People say to me all the time, that my dreams are... how do I come up with these dreams? They just don't get it. I've been dreaming a long time. The people are amazed when they hear of my... they are genius dreams. Great for everyone. Everyone benefits from my genius dreams. And I just say... I tell them, I'm a really good dreamer. They come from my head. I don't know who these people are. They just come up to me when I'm doing... I'm eating corn flakes. The corn flakes I eat are so good. They come from a company. I get them for free. As a gift. People gift me things. I'll play golf and someone I don't know walks up and hands me bowling shoes. For no reason. They say I do a good job. It's amazing what they say I do. They're so happy with what I do for them. And everyone is happy.

You had me going for a moment.

Personally I am more neutral to slightly disproving of Trump but no where to extent that I see people spewing hate, not even Bush gotten that much and people hated him for valid reasons. Centrists and those outside of the loop are watching all this and seeing the obvious that where things have gotten doesn't bode well for the future and "woke" is really another cult. I am very doubtful these people want there to be others of difference instead are forcing everyone else to adapt to their lines of thinking or be done away with including on the job and it is particularly bad in education. In the end the collapse is going to happen as society is too fractured and people are unwilling to seek much less work things out in a balanced manner.

A lot of 'woke' people have their heart in the right place. All it really means is 'We want people to be treated fairly and we dislike abuse of power.'

How it manifests, especially by some extreme elements can be different but their core ideals aren't so outrageous.

That said, like with Trump supporters the more extreme elements need to be challenged. Suggesting if we killed all the old rich white men we'd suddenly live in a utopia... No, humans don't work that way.

And we mustn't be afraid to call out people we agree with if they're actively suggesting harming others or discriminating against them.

It gets a bit grey in the current situation though were whichever decision people make - there will be suffering.

Which is why I have my hierarchy of least suffering which I use to guide my decisions.

When there are no good options, choose the least bad. The one with the least death and least suffering.

And any ideology that isn't self-supporting will eventually collapse. The world will turn and it will be forgotten.

Its why right and left extremists need to be fought so there is always a moderate option - because given the choice people will choose calm peace and diplomacy. If endless war were possible we'd still be fighting, but people get tired and when they do, they seek stability and sense.

Extremes need another extreme to balance against and say - "At least we aren't THEM!"

Take away one extreme and give a moderate option and people will want peace. Constant anger is tiring and people have better things to do.
 
You had me going for a moment.



A lot of 'woke' people have their heart in the right place. All it really means is 'We want people to be treated fairly and we dislike abuse of power.'

How it manifests, especially by some extreme elements can be different but their core ideals aren't so outrageous.

That said, like with Trump supporters the more extreme elements need to be challenged. Suggesting if we killed all the old rich white men we'd suddenly live in a utopia... No, humans don't work that way.

And we mustn't be afraid to call out people we agree with if they're actively suggesting harming others or discriminating against them.

It gets a bit grey in the current situation though were whichever decision people make - there will be suffering.

Which is why I have my hierarchy of least suffering which I use to guide my decisions.

When there are no good options, choose the least bad. The one with the least death and least suffering.

And any ideology that isn't self-supporting will eventually collapse. The world will turn and it will be forgotten.

Its why right and left extremists need to be fought so there is always a moderate option - because given the choice people will choose calm peace and diplomacy. If endless war were possible we'd still be fighting, but people get tired and when they do, they seek stability and sense.

Extremes need another extreme to balance against and say - "At least we aren't THEM!"

Take away one extreme and give a moderate option and people will want peace. Constant anger is tiring and people have better things to do.

I disagree as I've seen plenty of racism and sexism within woke culture and from woke individuals as well some level of antisemitism masked as "white privilege". Those who have learned from history have seen this before and no one is immune should things go on as they are. If they really cared for making this world a place to live in for all there would be none of the toxic identity politics that cause unnecessary divisions within society especially within the younger generations that have been indoctrinated into such as well the more unpleasant things where children are being exposed to perverse sexual things.

 
I disagree as I've seen plenty of racism and sexism within woke culture and from woke individuals as well some level of antisemitism masked as "white privilege". Those who have learned from history have seen this before and no one is immune should things go on as they are. If they really cared for making this world a place to live in for all there would be none of the toxic identity politics that cause unnecessary divisions within society especially within the younger generations that have been indoctrinated into such as well the more unpleasant things where children are being exposed to perverse sexual things.

Good post
 
With those numbers in mind you don't believe saving 1/3 of patients with acute respiratory distress is better than letting them all die?

Is there a sounder alternative for providing oxygen to people who have respiratory distress?

If a better alternative doesn't exist, I think it's quite irresponsible of outlets to suggest people should be left for dead even with numbers being as they are.
Yes this^
 
I disagree as I've seen plenty of racism and sexism within woke culture and from woke individuals as well some level of antisemitism masked as "white privilege". Those who have learned from history have seen this before and no one is immune should things go on as they are. If they really cared for making this world a place to live in for all there would be none of the toxic identity politics that cause unnecessary divisions within society especially within the younger generations that have been indoctrinated into such as well the more unpleasant things where children are being exposed to perverse sexual things.

Again, you paint the entire collective based upon the actions of a few.

People aren't collectives. People are individuals. There are many being shown only the good examples and not the bad.

If more people saw the whole picture, the truth, things would be different.

Problem is no one wants to talk these days.

If young people are being indoctrinated then it our responsibility to show them the truth so they can make an informed choice. Show them the suffering at the hands of those using the term 'woke' as their banner.

If they turn a blind eye they cannot be reasoned with and thus are no better than those who commit the acts themselves.

If they admit there is a problem then a dialogue can be established.

But it is not good to assume all people who identify as Woke are problematic, any more than identifying all Trump supporters as problematic.

The extremists will burn themselves out in time, provided there is a rational, clear headed place for people to seek refuge.
 
I find what's going on in the USA to be really fucking crazy. Your stimulus cheques are a slap in the face. The loans that were supposed to be made available to small businesses ran dry before many people could get them even if they applied on the first day possible. Large businesses ended up getting paid out because the banks were allowed to distribute the funds and they favoured companies that had debts with them so they could use the money to pay the debt and therefore the funds never left the banks. Why is your banking system so fucking corrupted? Why were there shitty loopholes in everything? Why is there no oversight into how stimulus funds are actually being spent? Why are people so scared of universal healthcare when it would SAVE THEM MONEY?

Canada is not perfect, don't get me wrong. But some of the problems that so many are facing in the USA are so foreign to me. You guys actually have to debate on whether you can sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives to save the fucking economy? I mean I'm Pro Choice but holy shit.... How did things get so bad and so fucking fragile in the USA that shutting things down for a bit cripples your entire country and leaves millions of people destitute?

If I were living in the USA I'd probably find myself trying to rationalize the whole thing by letting a ton of people die. Why not just get the second wave started now? Afterall that's when the most people died during the Spanish flu. Do you have enough crematoriums to deal with your dead? Is there enough ground to bury them in? I mean why not capitalize off millions of people dying, the funeral business is going to be BOOMING. Invest in Zoom! There will be so many zoom funerals happening now... /s

Sorry, it's just fucking crazy to me.
 
I find what's going on in the USA to be really fucking crazy. Your stimulus cheques are a slap in the face. The loans that were supposed to be made available to small businesses ran dry before many people could get them even if they applied on the first day possible. Large businesses ended up getting paid out because the banks were allowed to distribute the funds and they favoured companies that had debts with them so they could use the money to pay the debt and therefore the funds never left the banks. Why is your banking system so fucking corrupted? Why were there shitty loopholes in everything? Why is there no oversight into how stimulus funds are actually being spent? Why are people so scared of universal healthcare when it would SAVE THEM MONEY?

Canada is not perfect, don't get me wrong. But some of the problems that so many are facing in the USA are so foreign to me. You guys actually have to debate on whether you can sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives to save the fucking economy? I mean I'm Pro Choice but holy shit.... How did things get so bad and so fucking fragile in the USA that shutting things down for a bit cripples your entire country and leaves millions of people destitute?

If I were living in the USA I'd probably find myself trying to rationalize the whole thing by letting a ton of people die. Why not just get the second wave started now? Afterall that's when the most people died during the Spanish flu. Do you have enough crematoriums to deal with your dead? Is there enough ground to bury them in? I mean why not capitalize off millions of people dying, the funeral business is going to be BOOMING. Invest in Zoom! There will be so many zoom funerals happening now... /s

Sorry, it's just fucking crazy to me.

You are spot on. As an American, I agree with this and these are my frustrations.

Edit:. And get this. Now we have tons of people protesting the shut down because they say it's infringing on their rights. They aren't protesting that our economy is built on the backs of people one or two paychecks away from being destitute. They'd rather be out there working until they're dead from it or spreading it to others. We actually had a politician here say he and his generation would be willing to die for the economy. We're fucked up.
 
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I find what's going on in the USA to be really fucking crazy. Your stimulus cheques are a slap in the face. The loans that were supposed to be made available to small businesses ran dry before many people could get them even if they applied on the first day possible. Large businesses ended up getting paid out because the banks were allowed to distribute the funds and they favoured companies that had debts with them so they could use the money to pay the debt and therefore the funds never left the banks. Why is your banking system so fucking corrupted? Why were there shitty loopholes in everything? Why is there no oversight into how stimulus funds are actually being spent? Why are people so scared of universal healthcare when it would SAVE THEM MONEY?

Canada is not perfect, don't get me wrong. But some of the problems that so many are facing in the USA are so foreign to me. You guys actually have to debate on whether you can sacrifice hundreds of thousands of lives to save the fucking economy? I mean I'm Pro Choice but holy shit.... How did things get so bad and so fucking fragile in the USA that shutting things down for a bit cripples your entire country and leaves millions of people destitute?

If I were living in the USA I'd probably find myself trying to rationalize the whole thing by letting a ton of people die. Why not just get the second wave started now? Afterall that's when the most people died during the Spanish flu. Do you have enough crematoriums to deal with your dead? Is there enough ground to bury them in? I mean why not capitalize off millions of people dying, the funeral business is going to be BOOMING. Invest in Zoom! There will be so many zoom funerals happening now... /s

Sorry, it's just fucking crazy to me.
100%
 
You are spot on. As an American, I agree with this and these are my frustrations.

Edit:. And get this. Now we have tons of people protesting the shut down because they say it's infringing on their rights. They aren't protesting that our economy is built on the backs of people one or two paychecks away from being destitute. They'd rather be out there working until they're dead or spreading it to others.
I know, I've been following it a little but and it's pretty baffling. Then again, there's been one major shit storm after another in the USA over the last several years so I can also see why people are so twisted up about being asked to stay home. But I think they need to open their fucking eyes and see that their government is probably happy to sacrifice millions of them for the sake of the economy and that not one single person actually matters to them.

People in the USA have to realize that they're just numbers to the gov't. Just votes. Completely disposable. It's admirable to want to work and make your own income and contribute but the way that it's set up down there isn't freedom.
 
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