Vaccines Debate

[dogman6126]

Bill Gates says ''if we do a really good job on...vaccines...we can lower that (the population) by 10-15%'' @ 2.35

If you had watched the videos i posted earlier you would know this and you wouldn't be misquoting Gates:

[video=youtube;gROhNaJoGzI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gROhNaJoGzI[/video]

Please refer to my post again about the macroeconomic principle. And notice bill gates also talks about increasing health care. In stead of singling out one thing that he said, listen to the rest of it. He points out ways to better human society as a whole to take advantage of this macroeconomic principle which will in turn reduce population growth simple as a matter of fact without any type of poisoning. You assume that the only thing he could mean is that the vaccines are in some way poisoning people. Even if it were true that vaccines are poisons, you have failed to point out any way that all vaccines are harmful as you would seem to suggest. Just some video of Bill Gates supposedly saying vaccines are poisons does not prove that they are. You need to point out how that they are. Unfortunately for you, all the evidence points to vaccines being very safe and beneficial in a large majority of cases.

 

[Lerxst]

I get more insulted by people comparing me to the Tea Party, GOP, foil-hat wearing freaks because I choose not to have multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical companies tell me what's healthy for my kid... and... oh yeah, fork over my money to them in the process.

The problem is, the people saying vaccines are good are all influenced by the companies making those said vaccines - the doctors get "kick backs" for prescribing them and government gets lobbied by the companies.

The people saying they're bad usually don't receive any money for it, but are also usually Koch Brothers funded-lunatic conspiracy theorists.

So I'd rather just make up my own mind until someone offers indisputable, non-biased proof one way or another.

 

[dogman6126]

Please go to the video on here where it shows bill gates complete talk that that video singled out a single part.
http://www.ted.com/talks/bill_gates
and go to time slot 4:30. You will recognize that section of the video you posted muir.
Please listen to all that he says here. He is saying that increasing the general health and awareness of people will reduce population growth. He lists two other things than vaccines. Does that mean that increasing health care will somehow kill people? Does that mean educating people on sex and seeing that they have the medicines needed to be safe will kill them also? Why would he say two things that are helpful and one kills? It just doesn't make logical sense.

In the end the point of his talk is that yeah, reduced population and more services provided and efficiency increase will help, however the only way to effectively help the problem with CO2 is to reduce the amount of CO2 produced per unit energy. Basically advocating a switch away from fossil fuels. This is demonstrated at time slot 9:00 mark and after. His primary focus isn't even in the vaccines thing.

I went to see if I could find a commentary about this somewhere else. I found a somewhat comical, however very rude commentary that shows a person mirroring exactly what I have been saying to you almost:

http://vaccinecentral.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/bill-gates-hero-or-villain/

So, to sum it up, Mike Adams, in his infinite wisdom is telling us that Bill Gates thinks that vaccines can be used to reduce world population by killing us slowly, making us infertile or increasing mortality during a future pandemic. I think that fairly summarizes Mike’s “point”.

To be honest I was a little perplexed at the time. What did Bill Gates mean to say when he said if we do a really great job on new vaccines we can lower the world population by 10-15%? As is almost always the case, the meaning has revealed itself with a little bit of time, and luck by happening to find Bill Gates 2009 Annual Letter, posted on his foundation’s website. Here is an excerpt (emphasis mine):


"Over the past 50 years childhood deaths have dropped dramatically. Take a look at Chart 1, which is one of my favorites. (I hope you didn’t think you were going to get through this letter without some figures being thrown at you.) What you see is that in 1960, when there were nearly 110 million children born, almost 20 million children under 5 died. In 2005, when more than 135 million children were born, fewer than 10 million children under 5 died. I think this is one of the most amazing statistics ever. The number of children born went up, while the number who died was cut in half."

Not exactly what you’d expect someone who wants to use vaccines as a “method of population reduction”, maliciously of course, to say, no? Why Mike may be surprised to hear that Bill Gates is happy that childhood mortality rates have halved in the past 50 years. He might even reconsider his statements, but I wouldn’t bet on that. Let us continue reading Mr. Gates’ letter (again emphasis mine).


"Despite this progress, 10 million children dying is still 10 million too many. Each death is a tragedy. In the United States we don’t think much about young people dying because it is so rare. It would be a huge breakthrough to cut that 10 million in half again, which I believe can be done in the next 20 years."

These words are of course a ploy to cover his real malicious reasons, right Mike? But he’s not gonna pull the wool over YOUR eyes, is he Mike? Of course, you could’ve been horribly wrong in your assessment of Bill Gates’ talk, but what are the chances of that?!? No, no this is clearly a cover up. Let us go on.


"When Melinda and I first started our giving, in the late 1990s, our focus was on reproductive health rather than childhood deaths. We felt that giving mothers the tools to limit their family size to what they wanted would have a catalytic effect by reducing population growth and making it easier to feed, educate, and provide jobs for the children who were born."

Interesting; it’s starting to sound as if Bill Gates believes that a better reproductive health can help reduce population growth, a not-so-scandalous claim after all; people with better access to reproductive healthcare and education, especially birth control, tend to have less kids, methinks. This has got to be more covering up of the malicious plan, am I right Mike? Let’s go on reading and uncovering this nefarious plan.


"A surprising but critical fact we learned was that reducing the number of deaths actually reduces population growth.Chart 3 shows the strong connection between infant mortality rates and fertility rates. Contrary to the Malthusian view that population will grow to the limit of however many kids can be fed, in fact parents choose to have enough kids to give them a high chance that several will survive to support them as they grow old. As the number of kids who survive to adulthood goes up, parents can achieve this goal without having as many children.

This means that improved health is critical to getting a country into the positive cycle of increasing education, stability, and wealth. When health improves, people have smaller families and the government has more resources per person, so improving nutrition and education becomes much easier. These investments also improve health, and a virtuous cycle begins that takes a country out of poverty."

Damn, this guy is really good at pretending to have good intentions, right Mike? Well, he can’t fool you can he Mike?

Now someone of lesser intelligence, such as myself, might reach the conclusion that Bill Gates believes that through better healthcare, which includes vaccines, better sex education and birth control methods, world population can go down naturally by inducing parents to have fewer children; we can argue about the merits of that line of thinking, but there’s nothing malicious about it. Someone like me, who has not the power to read minds, would rely on what Bill Gates actually says and writes, which seems to suggest that his intentions are pure. It appears he cares about improving the living conditions of the millions that are less lucky than Mike Adams and myself; cares about reducing death rates in children; cares about lifting poor nations out of poverty.

I am not using this as evidence to support my point, so it is unnecessary to question the bias of this post. Just look at what he is saying, it is basic logical reasoning. Not some kind of piece of the whole conspiracy. The letter from Bill Gates (the " parts) is real.

 

[muir]

I misunderstood, that's why I posted multiple points. Some based on logic rather than source. Now that I see what you mean better, I will post a few different sources. However I would like to again point out you assume that such a group existed and were pulling such strings, you have no way to prove such a group. This is only an assumption.

That is simply NOT true!

We know that the group exists there is ample proof!

Look the Bilderberg meeting has just been going on in Denmark. This is one of the most visible manifestations of the group...it's real....it exists.....and now becuase of public pressure they are publishing their lists of attendees

No doubt now they are having to be more careful in their discussions because of the attention and they will now drive their most esoteric discussions deeper underground and keep Bilderberg as a more outer order talking shop

However a Dutch politician came out and spoke to the alternative media people outside Bilderberg and he exaplined how it works in terms of transparency. Basically there is an agreement amongst the attendees that they can speak publically about what they have said in the meetings but they CANNOT speak about what others say in the meetings. This is known as 'Chatham House rules' after the think tank called informally 'chatham house' and formally known as: The Royal Institute of International Affairs

Chatham House was set up as part of an anglo-zionist network that spans the atlantic

It's sister organisation in the USA is called 'the Council on Foreign relations'

These places are forums where the cabal summon people to come and be told the agenda. They summon politicans, they summon media people, they summon business heads, industry heads and so on

The cabal includes royalty from around europe who all have close ties to the vatican; these are called 'the Black Nobility'

In the late 1800's one of the richest men in the world was Cecil Rhodes. He owned De Beers diamond company which exploited african slave labour to dig up diamonds. The diamond trade has always been controlled largely by ashkenazi jews and Israel is one of the diamond centres of the world

The money to set up De Beers was provided by the Rothschild family, an ashkenazi jewish family with close ties to the vatican and the black nobility. The Rothcshilds are in the inner order of the secret society that is at the heart of the zionist movement. The Rothschilds were the heads of the Zionist Federation and they made a secret deal with the british government to use their influence in the USA for example in media and banking to bring the US into ther second world war in return for Palestine (which was part of the British empire at that time). This agreement was called 'te Balfour declaration' after the british politician who chaired it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Balfour_Declaration

Israel....a global centre for the trade of diamonds, weaponry and human organs is the fiefdom of the Rothschilds and is used as a forward military base in the middle east by the anglo-zionist network to dominate the oil rich region

The ashkenazi jews are descended from the Khazars who converted to Judaism hundreds of years ago and who never came from palestine...they have no claim on the land. They are not the original hebrews. They have simply stolen the land from the Palestineans whose ancestral lands it is.

Recent genetic studies carried out by an ashkenazi jewish Geneticist Eran Elhaik of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland prove their khazar descendancy

So Cecil Rhodes was an agent of the Rothschilds. Rhodes was a social darwinist eugenicist who believed in the superiority of the white race. He believed, as many upper class British people did, that the British had a divine right to rule the world and they set about creating an Empire which sought to subjigate all peoples of the earth under the control of the British crown. The British Royal family trace their lineage (their bloodline) back to ancient Egypt and Babylon.

To achieve this Rhodes set up a scholarship to help improve anglo-american links (president Clinton was a rhodes scholar) and he left his massive fortune in his will to be used to create a secret network called 'the round table group' (obviously the name is derived from arthurian legend which has strong associations with the knights templar, but that is a whole other branch of this story)

The round table group had at its core a group of 300 people drawn from the black nobility and the banking elite. Then there were branches that came off this core groups for example:

• Chatham House
• The Council on Foreign Relations
• The Bilderberg Club
• The Club of Rome
• The Trilateral Commission
• JASON society

etc etc etc

All these groups are basically forums where the network can gather and receive their orders from the council of 300; they are also able to brainstorm ideas and bind themselves into a cohesive force with a common goal

American writer David Rothkopf says in his book 'superclass' that there are about 6000 of this global elite who are controlling the rest of humanity

This global elite or what the writer Aldous Huxley called 'the world controllers' have a vision for the world. They want to control things and at the moment they maintain an illusion of democracy to keep the population pacified, but that is not enough for them. They want total unconditional control over the world, its resources and the global population. They call this vision for the world 'the new world order' but it has also been called 'the 4th reich'

You can hera many British and US politicans mentioning the new world order (as well as that dutch politician at the bilderberg club recently...letting the words slip out at one point!)

But lets look at one. Here is president Bush senior, who is a blood relative of the British Royal family, telling us of their plan for a new world order (despite the fact he is trying to make it sound positive..it still comes over as sinister because the guy is creepy in his bones:

[video=youtube;_CWBTL33MpA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CWBTL33MpA[/video]

Bush was a member of illuminati lodge 322 known as the 'skull and bones'

here is a clip of a student asking John kerry about his membership of the skull and bones (the US public were given a choice between kerry or bush jnr for president but both were members of the skull and cross bones). The student is dragged away and tasered by cops for asking kerry what is a perfectly reasonable question for a citizen of a democracy to ask:

[video=youtube;XqwOykQxGSw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqwOykQxGSw[/video]

Bush snrs father was Prescott Bush who was a banker who helped fund the Nazis (who called for a new world order...3rd reich). The Nazis also used the skull and bones as their symbol (called 'the deaths-head'). From the second world war israel was formed and many countries became heavily indebted to the bankers for war loans.

Hitler believed that the white race was superior to the rest of humanity. He believed that the nordic race were descended from the gods and that they should subjugate the other races. Many powerful people in the US and UK supported the Nazis.

After the war some nazis helped set up NATO which conceals a swastika in the dark part of its star symbol. Nato is the military wing of the new world order

The vatican also supported the Nazis and nazio gold was banked in switzerland where the cabal have their banking headquarters called 'The Bank for International Settlements' (BIS)

Switzerland is also protected by treaty by all European countries as a neutral safe house for gold and wealth. It also provides the vatican with its mercenary guards and it is also home to the annual World Economic Forum at Davos where the global elite meet with politicians to outline how the agenda will be rolled out over the coming year. Despite being neutral switzerland conscripts all its male population into the military for a term and gives them each a weapon to keep in their home. This is to prevent any nationalist country from ever invading and taking the wealth of the globalists; many swiss would fight out of patriotism unknowing that they are actually acting as guards for the wealth of the global elite

The cabal control the worlds oil, guns and drug trade. This is why scandals like the iran contra affair, the fast and furious gun running, opium growing in afghanistan, money laundering for drug cartels by banks such as HSBC etc etc happen because behind the scenes these people are all engaged in these activities.

The UK, US and Israel are some of the worlds biggest arms dealers

The vatican is also involved in these activites and its bank has been implicated in various scandals including the P2 Freemasonic Lodge scandal which uncovered secret NATO 'stay behind' armies created across Europe after world war 2 to fight a terror war against any peoples movements. This was called 'Operation Gladio' by the CIA who backed it. This operation involved carrying out false flag terrorist attacks such as the Bologna Train bombing (very similar to the recent madrid train bombing) as part of a 'strategy of tension' which means that they did the attacks and blamed them on the political left in order to pursuade the voting public to agree to more draconian (draco...dragon...serpent) laws

We are seeing the same strategy of tension carried out now for example with 911 pursuading the US public to agree to new 'anti-terror' laws which basically take away the freedoms of US citizens for example stop and search, government surveillance (eg PRISM), the 'patriot act', the NDAA, drone flights over US soil, the militarisation of the police etc etc

One of the most common false flags we are seeing at the moment is shootings which are designed to pursuade the public to give up their guns becaus eonce they do that there will be nothing to stop the new world order takeover of the US.

The shadow government was revealed under congressional hearing when it was called the 'enterprise' by insiders...this was all shown in a TV programme seen by thousands of americans in the 1980's:

[video=youtube;qJldun440Sk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJldun440Sk[/video]

This shadow government is the one working with the drug cartels, running guns into central america to support the contra death squads and smuggling drugs back into the US to pay for the operation

The shadow government has never cared about there being drugs in the US as long as they are confined mainly to black and hispanic communities because the cabal is inherently racist. They basically believe that people who are of RH- blood are descended from the 'gods' (off world groups) and that is why they claim a 'divine right to rule'. This lineage from the gods is described by the sumerians in their clay tablets.. This is what the recent Holywood film 'Prometheus' is about....humans being genetically bred by off world groups. Strangely after making this film the brother of the director Ridley Scott, Tony Scott who was also a famous director mysteriously jumped to his death off the golden gate bridge)

They believe that people of RH+ blood are a hybrid made from monkeys by the gods as a slave work force. The RH+ being genes from the rhesus monkey.

This is what Hitler was talking about.

The cabal believe that there are too many RH+ people on the earth now and they believe that there needs to be a cull just like the biblical flood was used to cull RH+ people in the past

They are using many means to achieve this for example: war, famine, sanctions, diseases manufactured in labs, toxic vaccines, food additives, grinding poverty etc etc but the population keeps growing because they don't want to alleviate poverty

You could see the recent 'planet of the apes' films (made by hollywood, which is the propaganda arm of the shadow government) as an allegory of this world view

People think that having a black president is a sign that the elite in the US are not racist but they don't realise that Obama is RH- blood type

So the cabal are racist eugencists, they do believe that they are distinctly different from the mass of humanity and that is why royal families only marry within royal families. Also if you spend sometime researching the banking families behind the federal reserve you will find that they all inter marry with each other

They're obsessed with bloodlines and lineages and genealogy

Princess Diana described herself as being used by the royal family as their 'brood mare' to make princes

Prince Phillip is a eugencist (often caught making racist comments) as is Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands who was one of the founders of Bilderberg

Going back to the round table groups, the US historian Prof Crarol Quigley was allowed access to the files of the round table group and he called them the 'Milner' group. Here is what he wrote in his book 'Tragedy and Hope', from wikipedia:

In his book The Anglo-American Establishment: From Rhodes to Cliveden,[SUP][19][/SUP] Quigley purports to trace the history of a secret society founded in 1891 by Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Milner. Quigley notes that "The organization was so modified and so expanded by Milner after the eclipse of Stead in 1899, and especially after the death of Rhodes in 1902, that it took on quite a different organization and character, although it continued to pursue the same goals."[SUP][20][/SUP]
The society consisted of an inner circle ("The Society of the Elect") and an outer circle ("The Association of Helpers", also known as The Milner Kindergarten and the Round Table Group).[SUP][21][/SUP] The society as a whole does not have a fixed name:

This society has been known at various times as Milner's Kindergarten, as the Round Table Group, as the Rhodes crowd, as The Times crowd, as the All Souls group, and as the Cliveden set. ... I have chosen to call it the Milner group. Those persons who have used the other terms, or heard them used, have not generally been aware that all these various terms referred to the same Group...this Group is, as I shall show, one of the most important historical facts of the twentieth century.[SUP][22][/SUP][SUP]:ix[/SUP]
​

Quigley assigns this group primary or exclusive credit for several historical events: the Jameson Raid, the Second Boer War, the founding of the Union of South Africa, the replacement of the British Empire with the Commonwealth of Nations, and a number of Britain's foreign policy decisions in the twentieth century.[SUP][22][/SUP][SUP]:5[/SUP]
In 1966, Quigley published a one-volume history of the twentieth century entitled Tragedy And Hope. At several points in this book, the history of the Milner group is discussed. Moreover, Quigley states that he has recently been in direct contact with this organization, whose nature he contrasts to right-wing claims of a communist conspiracy:

This radical Right fairy tale, which is now an accepted folk myth in many groups in America, pictured the recent history of the United States, in regard to domestic reform and in foreign affairs, as a well-organized plot by extreme Left-wing elements.... This myth, like all fables, does in fact have a modicum of truth. There does exist, and has existed for a generation, an international Anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the Radical right believes the Communists act. In fact, this network, which we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to cooperating with the Communists, or any other group, and frequently does so. I know of the operation of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records. I have no aversion to it or to most of its aims and have, for much of my life, been close to it and to many of its instruments. I have objected, both in the past and recently, to a few of its policies... but in general my chief difference of opinion is that it wishes to remain unknown, and I believe its role in history is significant enough to be known.[SUP][23][/SUP][SUP]:949–950[/SUP]
​

According to Quigley, the leaders of this group were Cecil Rhodes and Alfred Milner from 1891 until Rhodes' death in 1902, Milner alone until his own death in 1925, Lionel Curtis from 1925 to 1955, Robert H. (Baron) Brand from 1955 to 1963, and Adam D. Marris from 1963 until the time Quigley wrote his book. This organization also functioned through certain loosely affiliated "front groups", including the Royal Institute of International Affairs, the Institute of Pacific Relations, and the Council on Foreign Relations.[SUP][23][/SUP][SUP]:132, 950–952[/SUP]
In addition, other secret societies are briefly discussed in Tragedy and Hope, including a consortium of the leaders of the central banks of several countries, who formed the Bank for International Settlements.


Concerning what cecil rhodes wrote in his will he said the following:

To and for the establishment, promotion and development of a Secret Society, the true aim and object whereof shall be for the extension of British rule throughout the world, the perfecting of a system of emigration from the United Kingdom, and of colonisation by British subjects of all lands where the means of livelihood are attainable by energy, labour and enterprise, and especially the occupation by British settlers of the entire Continent of Africa, the Holy Land, the Valley of the Euphrates, the Islands of Cyprus and Candia, the whole of South America, the Islands of the Pacific not heretofore possessed by Great Britain, the whole of the Malay Archipelago, the seaboard of China and Japan, the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of the British Empire, the inauguration of a system of Colonial representation in the Imperial Parliament which may tend to weld together the disjointed members of the Empire and, finally, the foundation of so great a Power as to render wars impossible, and promote the best interests of humanity.[

I could go on and on for hours about this stuff but it is real as i have demonstrated but you won't hear it talked about in the mainstream media because the cabal bought the mainstream media. A process described in this short clip:

[video=youtube;aWrL2n3yB0U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWrL2n3yB0U[/video]

The knights templar were a group set up by the priory of sion which were dedicated to restoring the Merovingian royal line back into power. The merovingians were said to possess magickal powers (ie they were occultists) an the cabal is clearly working to restore royal power not just in Europe but over the US which it is weakening with every month that goes by. They wish to create a neo-fuedal world where the oligarchic elite rule over the many with a fist of iron. This world has recently been outline by Hollywood in film such as 'Oblivion' and 'the Hunger Games' which seek to plant seeds of future realities into the minds of viewers in a technique known as 'predictive programming' which is a kind of auto sugestion; in magickal terms this is known as 'bud will'

We can see this two tier neo-fuedal world emerging as the wealth gap between the rich and the rest of society widens leaving many depednent on state handouts and food banks whislt the rich are richer than they have ever been; this has lead to the occupy chant of the 99% against the 1% (that is neo-fuedalism)

Here in the UK we are seeing tuition fees for students now and we are seeing the destruction of the National Health Service. The plan of the cabal is to create a world where only the rich can get education, healthare, transport, top jobs etc so that the poor will die off or become easily controllable serfs

http://aop.sagepub.com/content/45/10/1302.short
This is a scientific article that talks specifically about the fraudulent study done by wakefield. I will quote the abstract:

This shows the general story of wakefield from a different source as you would like. Notice again this is a peer reviewed article.
http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d22

This is self explanatory.
The next few quotes are from this article: http://www.indianjpsychiatry.org/ar...sue=2;spage=95;epage=96;aulast=Sathyanarayana

Those shows an inherent error with wakefield. Much of his study was based on correlative evidence including time frame. Because these both happen near the same time, he was able to find cases where a child got the vaccine, then developed Autism. This is how he picked and choose his "evidence". This is falsifying facts. It is important to note that they also found that wakefield included cases where autism presented itself as much as a year after the vaccination as "evidence". This is not possible. The effects would have to be almost instantaneous in all cases if wakefield were correct.

Wakefield broke the medical code of ethical conduct and that's why he was stripped of his license. Not some kind of conspiracy. He was a bad doctor and a bad scientist. Almost the entire scientific community recognizes this.


Again, this is conjecture, you have no proof of such a group and no proof of such control. You have guesses. I would also like to point out this is irrelevant to our discussion about the safety of vaccines. Even if such a conspiracy were real, it does not prove that vaccines are dangerous.


You think this, but most of the scientific community thinks otherwise. And they have evidence to support it. You think this cause you want to believe it and it supports what you think. Personally, I find the scientific community a more reliable source.


Yes, the vaccine was a kind of environmental stressor on a genetic deformation of the children was the cause according to Wakefield. However, due to fraud, falsifying records (don't know if it was Wakefield himself, but they know the records were falsified), Wakefield's study is unreliable and is known as no evidence to prove causation. Now lets see what that means. Lets assume for a moment that Wakefield were correct (which is unknown if he is right or not, we need further studies). The vaccine is a kind of environmental stressor. That means that the vaccine DOES NOT CAUSE AUTISM. An environmental stressor could be anything, simply the vaccine is one thing that could trigger it in this case. By definition of this, the vaccine does not even cause autism, it just triggers the child's innate predisposition towards autism. Again, there is not even any proof that such is the case, however if it were, the vaccine is not a cause but a trigger.

I think you are getting too caught up in the wakefiled case; the vaccine debate does not hinge on the wakefiled case

One of the criticsms of it was that it was not a large enough sample base but there have been other studies since supporting wakefeilds claims

This video was ridiculous. There was so much smoke blowing I nearly choked. However at this point, I am going to the movies (gonna go see the new Godzilla with friends, really excited lol

). I will address this video and everything in it when I get back. So please be patient with me on that.

Lol

Ridiculous because it proves that the CDC know that vaccines can give vaccine induced fevers to children with mitochondrial disorders who can then develop autism as a result?

The new Godzilla movie is apparently propaganda to play on fears over climate change which is a big thing for the cabal who want to use it as the excuse to bring in global government (unelected of course!) and impose carbon taxes on everyone (except themselves of course!)

 

[muir]

View attachment 21152

That's a very childish bit of propaganda

I expect better from you

 

[muir]

Ok, this does make sense. Think about it. With less concerns and more options available, families can better plan for the future. Vaccines are one piece of that.

Having options is only good if you are informed

If i say to you here is a gas mask suck on it and it will be good for your health. And you ask what is in it and i say it's name is 'x' but really it is zyklon B then that is not really a very good option is it but before you suck on it you are grateful for the 'option' i am giving you

I could even make a film where the hero sucks on a mask and is shown developing extra powers to try and subtly manipulate you into thinking that sucking down zyklon B is a good thing

In India Bill Gates paid Bollywood film stars who are REVERRED as almost demi-gods over there to promote the polic vaccines which then left tens of thousands of children PARALYSED

Without having to worry about loosing children to diseases when they are young, knowing that it is extremely likely your child will live to be an adult, you won't need to have as big of a family. Having multiple children is a kind of insurance policy incase one of them dies.

No its not....the rural poor have children to help on the farm

When they have girls they often drown them as babies because they are not seen as being as useful for physical work and also because cultural they must be married off with an expensive dowry. This is why there are more males than females in India; if you go there you will see large packs of boys walking around

That is a basic principle that goes back to the earliest humans. Poor families won't need as many children in the long run because of this. That is why it works.
This principle says nothing about vaccines. Think about it please. The India example is simply to demonstrate the effect of this principle. In richer, healthier, and more successful areas, there are less children being born. In poorer areas without adequate care, more children are born. India is a good example because their class system leads to very defined boarders as compared to countries like the U.S.

What reduces population numbers is a reduction of poverty. If a farmer can afford a tractor then he doesn't need a bunch of sons to plough, sow and reap the fields

Again, that is just to demonstrate the principle. Now Bill gates is talking about applying that principle. Vaccines are one way to do this.

You're not making any sense

More would be needed, but that is one very effective add on. To know your child will survive, you will only want one or two, maybe three, children instead of like 5 simply because you can better afford it with fewer children and knowing they will be ok is a major help in that.

That doesn't make logical sense. People don't have children in clumps they have them one at a time. The way to make sure children grow healthily is to ensure they have strong immune systems which means healthy breastmilk (see Nestle powdered milk scandal in Africa), healthy water, healthy food (not exposed to poisonous pesticides), good education and positive employment options

That's what people need...NOT vaccines

That is the principle I'm talking about, it makes sense.

It makes business sense for big pharma

Here is a cite where you can find more detailed information on this principle straight from a macroeconomics textbook. That tells you this principle is reliable and real. Its taught at colleges.
http://catalog.flatworldknowledge.com/bookhub/reader/23?e=rittenmacro-ch19_s02

***slaps forehead***

Who do you think decides the curriculem? Who do you think publishes the textbooks and controls the universities?

[video=youtube;iFlvkwXCQco]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFlvkwXCQco[/video]

Fertility in this case is only referring to birth rates per person. Not sperm/egg counts. I don't know anything about sperm counts dropping in rich areas (that is not to say it is real or not, simply that I do not know about it). However, just because sperm counts are dropping in rich areas does not mean it is caused by vaccines. That's like saying 10 people are depressed and they all live in the same town, well then it must be that town is depressing. That is not causation, it is a correlation. That does not prove anything

Personally i wouldn't put all the blame for that one at the door of vaccines but i think they are a factor

I'd also point to other things for example exposure to PCB's which are commonly found in babies milk bottles!

Yes you'd think the last place we as a society would want to put gender bending chemicals is in the milk bottles of babies but there they are! Still it's no mystery to me...i know exactly what they are doing there and who put them there

In case you have a misunderstanding about causation and correlation, I will give you a really good example.
A study was done a while ago that measured the amount of ice cream consumed in Chicago over the course of the year and crime rates. They noticed a very strong correlation. As more ice cream was bought, crime rates also went up a lot. This is not to say that ice cream causes crime, even though there is a correlation. After further study, they noticed that it was during the summer and winter. During the summer more people bought ice cream and crime rates were greater. During winter, a lot less people bought ice cream (obviously) and crime rates went down significantly (because it was cold, people generally have less energy, its harder to steal or fight when its cold). In this case there was a very strong correlation, but that does not mean it is the cause.

yeah i've read freakanomics too smart ass!

You can dance around chanting its correlation not causation all you want but when it becomes commonly accepted wisdom that there is a link between vaccines and all sorts of health problems you are going to be left looking like a total dickhead

This is just blatantly incorrect. Vaccines are not designed to damage the immune system. They are designed to stimulate the immune system in a safe and controlled manor that will cause the body to develop appropriate responses should the body encounter the real disease the vaccine is designed to prevent. Anyone with medical knowledge can vouch for this. This is basic fact! Given its a lot more complicated, but this is the general way vaccines work.

You didn't read the article i posted above about how vaccines work did you?

They stop the immune system working properly

 

[muir]

Please refer to my post again about the macroeconomic principle. And notice bill gates also talks about increasing health care. In stead of singling out one thing that he said, listen to the rest of it. He points out ways to better human society as a whole to take advantage of this macroeconomic principle which will in turn reduce population growth simple as a matter of fact without any type of poisoning. You assume that the only thing he could mean is that the vaccines are in some way poisoning people. Even if it were true that vaccines are poisons, you have failed to point out any way that all vaccines are harmful as you would seem to suggest. Just some video of Bill Gates supposedly saying vaccines are poisons does not prove that they are. You need to point out how that they are. Unfortunately for you, all the evidence points to vaccines being very safe and beneficial in a large majority of cases.

Bill Gates can talk about 'health care' all he likes but what he is actually doing is pumping his vacciens into the worlds poor

Bill Gates owns shares in MONSANTO which is voted every year to be the worlds most evil corporation

Monsanto is behind the seed monopolisation, terminator seeds, GMO's, agent orange and other assorted nasties which have been shown by french scientists to give lab rats cancer

The forcing of monsanto products onto Indian farmers has lead to many suicides by desperate farmers who feel they have run out of options

Monsanto with Gates funding is also involved in geoengineering which involves the spraying of chemicals into the air above our heads which is of course exactly what monsanto did in the vietnam war with agent orange which deformed babies and gave people cancer an also the alteration of weather called Operation Popeye: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye

That's right they are involved in weather modification and the spraying of toxic substances into the air

Bill Gates has spoken publically about his 'geoengineering' plans

[video=youtube;N3TfZoEebKY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3TfZoEebKY[/video]

 

[muir]

Here's some interesting quotes that i think clearly explain from people in the know who really runs the US and the UK and Israel:

[FONT=&amp]"All the perplexities, confusions, and distresses in America arise, not from defects in the Constitution or confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, as much as from downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit, and circulation." - John Quincy Adams

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless." - Abraham Lincoln, from a November 21, 1864 letter to Colonel William F. Elkins

"Banks create credit. It is a mistake to suppose that bank credit is created to any extent by the deposit of money into the banks. A loan made by a bank is a clear addition to the amount of money in the community." - Encyclopedia Britannica, 14th Edition

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and born in sin. Bankers own the Earth. Take it away from them but leave them the power to create money, and, with the flick of a pen, they will create enough money to buy it back again. Take this great power away from them and all great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for then this would be a better and happier world to live in. But, if you want to continue to be the slave of the bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, then let the bankers continue to create money and control credit." - Sir Josiah Stamp, President, Bank of England (2nd richest man in England)

"But if in the pursuit of the means we should unfortunately stumble again on unfunded paper money or any similar species of fraud, we shall assuredly give a fatal stab to our national credit in its infancy. Paper money will invariably operate in the body of politics as spirit liquors on the human body. They prey on the vitals and ultimately destroy them. Paper money has had the effect in your state that it will ever have, to ruin commerce, oppress the honest, and open the door to every species of fraud and injustice." , George Washington in a letter to Jabez Bowen, Rhode Island, Jan. 9, 1787

"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." - Lord John Maynard Keynes, "Economic Consequences of Peace"

"Capital must protect itself in every way. Debts must be collected, mortgages foreclosed as rapidly as possible. When through the process of law the common people lose their homes, they will become more docile and more easily governed through the strong arm of government applied by a central power of wealth under leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd. It is thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves that which has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished." - U.S. Banker's Association Magazine, 1924

"Congress [not private banks] shall have the power to coin money and regulate the value thereof." - Article 1 of the U.S. Constitution.

Congressman Patman: "Mr. Eccles, how did you get the money to buy those two billions of government securities?" Eccles: "We created it." Patman: "Out of what?" Eccles: "Out of the right to issue credit money." - Testimony of Marriner Eccles, Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, before the House Banking and Currency Committee, 1941

"Every circulating Federal Reserve Note represents in actuality a one dollar debt to the Federal Reserve system." - Money Facts, House Banking and Currency Committee

"Every Congressman, every Senator knows precisely what causes inflation…but can't, won't support the drastic reforms to repeal of the Federal Reserve Act because it could cost him his job." - Robert A. Heinlein, Expanded Universe

"Every effort has been made by the Federal Reserve Board to conceal its powers, but the truth is that the Federal Reserve System has usurped the government. It controls everything in congress and it controls all our foreign relations. It makes and breaks governments at will." - Louis McFadden, Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency

"For a long time I felt that FDR had developed many thoughts and ideas that were his own to benefit this country, the United States. But he didn't. Most of his thoughts were carefully manufactured for him in advance by the Council on Foreign Relations One World Money Group. The United Nations is but a long range, international banking apparatus clearly set up for financial and economic profit by a small group of powerful One-World revolutionaries, hungry for profit and power. The One-World government leaders and their ever close bankers have now acquired full control of the money and credit machinery of the U.S. via the creation of the privately owned Federal Reserve Bank." - Curtis Dall, Son-in-Law of F.D.R., 1936

"For more than a century, ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure - one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it." - David Rockefeller, Memoirs, 2002

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance." - James Madison

"I am afraid that ordinary citizens will not like to be told that the banks can, and do, create and destroy money; and they who control the credit of the nation direct the policy of governments and hold in the hollow of their hands the destiny of the people." - R. McKenna, Chairman, Midland Bank London

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power of money should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." - Thomas Jefferson

"I have never seen more Senators express discontent with their jobs. I think the major cause is that, deep down in our hearts, we have been accomplices in doing something terrible and unforgivable to our wonderful country. Deep down in our heart, we know that we have given our children a legacy of bankruptcy. We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected." - John Danforth

"I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world… no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." - Woodrow Wilson

"If all the bank loans were paid up, no one would have a bank deposit, and there would not be a dollar of currency or coin in circulation. This is a staggering thought. We are completely dependent on the commercial banks for our money. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money, we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp upon the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible - but there it is. It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it is widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." - Robert H. Hemphill, Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta

"If Congress has the right to issue paper money currency, it was given to them to be used by the government and not to be delegated to individuals or corporations." - President Andrew Jackson, Vetoed Bank Bill of 1836

"If ever again our nation stumbles upon unfunded paper, it shall surely be like death to our body politic. This country will crash." - George Washington

"If that mischievous financial policy which had its origin in the North American Republic [debt-free money] should become indurated down to a fixture, then that government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off its debts and be without a debt to the International Bankers. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous beyond precedent in the history of the civilized governments of the world. The brains and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That government must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe!" - Times of London newspaper, 1865

"If the people were to ever find out what we have done, we would be chased down the streets and lynched." - George H.W. Bush to White House reporter Sarah McClendon, 1992

"If two parties, instead of being a bank and an individual, were an individual and an individual, they could not inflate the circulating medium by a loan transaction, for the simple reason that the lender could not lend what he didn't have, as banks can do. Only commercial banks and trust companies can lend money that they manufacture by lending it." - Professor Irving Fisher, Yale University, in his book "100% Money"

"If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed." - Mark Twain

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie." - Joseph Goebbels

"If you want to make someone angry tell him a lie; if you want to make him furious, tell him the truth. All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed , second it is violently opposed, and third it is accepted as self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden' confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights." - Alan Greenspan, Gold and Economic Freedom

"It does not take a majority to prevail… but rather an irate tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Founding Patriot Samuel Adams

"The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debts." - Henry Ford

"It may appear that what goes on is happenstance, but the government most surely has planned it." - Franklin Roosevelt

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you."
- Pericles, 430 B.C.)

"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States." , Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AR)

"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England… nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament , or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All we have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Herman Goering, Nuremberg Trials

"Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries." - Modern Money Mechanics Workbook, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975

"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge - even to ourselves - that we've been so credulous." - Carl Sagan

"Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan

"Our goal is gradually to absorb the wealth of the world." - Cecil Rhodes, "The secret banking cabal"

"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation and I care not who makes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild, founder of the Rothschild international Banking Dynasty, 1790

"Power concedes nothing without demand." - Frederick Douglass

"See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them; and gives it to persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay, for it is not only an evil in itself, but also is a fertile source for further evils, for it invites reprisals. If such a law is not abolished immediately, it will spread, multiply and develop into a system." - Frederic Bastiat

"Should government refrain from regulation and taxation, the worthlessness of the money becomes apparent and the fraud can no longer be concealed." - Lord John Maynard Keynes, "The Economic Consequences of Peace"

"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers." - Congressional Record 12595-12603 June 10, 1932

"The bold effort the Second National Bank of the U.S. had made to control government and the distress it has wantonly produced are but premonitions of the fate that awaits the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it." - Andrew Jackson

"The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of Mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, so what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. They pull the strings and we dance." - John Swinton, New York Times Chief of Staff

"The central bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution. I am an enemy to all banks discounting bills or notes for anything but coin. If the American people allow private banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered." - Thomas Jefferson.

"The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government, all under their control. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent." - Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976

"The entire banking movement, at all crucial stages, was centralized in the hands of a few men who for years were linked, ideologically and personally, with one another." - Gabriel Kolko

"The eyes of our citizens are not sufficiently open to the true cause of our distress. They ascribe them to everything but their true cause, the banking system; a system which if it could do good in any form is yet so certain of leading to abuse as to be utterly incompatible with the public safety and prosperity. The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution." - Thomas Jefferson

"The Federal Reserve Act as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency. I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." - Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913

"The Federal Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities." - Lewis vs. United States 9th Circuit 1992

"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers." - Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)

"The Federal Reserve bank buys government bonds without one penny…" , Congressman Wright Patman, Congressional Record, Sept 30, 1941

"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from either class." - Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863

"The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That board administers a finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. That system is private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money. This (Federal Reserve) Act establishes the most gigantic trust on Earth. When the president signs this bill, the invisible governments by the monetary power will be legalized. The people may not know it immediately but the day of reckoning is only a few years removed, the worst legislatives crime of the ages perpetrated by this banking bill." - Charles A. Lindbergh, Representative, MN

"The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity." - Abraham Lincoln

"The great mass of people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one. What luck for rulers that men do not think." - Adolf Hitler

"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight. We are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy that relies primarily on covert means for expanding its sphere of influence…" - John F. Kennedy at Columbia University, 1963

"The Illuminati bankers rule the world through debt, which is money they create out of nothing. They need world government to ensure no country defaults or tries to overthrow them. As long as private bankers, instead of governments, create money the human race is doomed. These bankers and their allies have bought everything and everyone." - Henry Makow

"The increase in the assets of the Federal Reserve banks from 143 million dollars in 1913 to 45 billion dollars in 1949 went directly to the private stockholders of the [federal reserve] banks." - Eustace Mullins

"The issue which has swept down the centuries and which will have to be fought sooner or later is the People vs. The Banks." - Lord Acton, Lord Chief Justice of England, 1875

"The modern banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented." - Major L.B.Angus

"The real menace of our republic is this invisible government, which, like a giant octopus, sprawls its slimy length over city, state, and nation. Like the octopus of real life, it operates under cover of a self created screen. At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both political parties." - John F. Hylan, New York City Mayor, 1922.

"The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies. …but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." , Lewis vs. United States, 680 F. 2d 1239 9th Circuit 1982

"The study of money, above all other fields in economics, is one in which complexity is used to disguise truth or to evade truth, not to reveal it." - John Kenneth Galbraith, in his book "Money: Whence It Came, Where It Went", 1975

"The surest way to overthrow an existing social order is to debauch the currency." - Lenin

"The Trilateral Commission is international and is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States. The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power: Political, Monetary, Intellectual, and Ecclesiastical." - Barry Goldwater , U.S. Senator

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Menken

"This Federal Reserve Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President Wilson signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized. The worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." - Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913

"This truth is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of Capital to govern the world. By dividing the voters through the political party system, we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance. Thus by discreet action we can secure for ourselves what has been so well planned and so successfully accomplished." - Sir Denison Miller

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes." - Benjamin Disraeli, First Prime Minister of Britain

"There is no more direct way to capture control of a nation than through its credit and money system." - Phillip A. Benson, President of American Bankers' Association, 1939

"They must find it difficult… those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority."

"They who have put out the people's eyes reproach them of their blindness." - John Milton

"The actual process of money creation takes place primarily in banks. Bankers discovered that they could make loans merely by giving their promise to pay, or bank notes, to borrowers. In this way banks began to create money. Transaction deposits are the modern counterpart of bank notes. It was a small step from printing notes to making book entries crediting deposits of borrowers, which the borrowers in turn could 'spend' by writing checks, thereby 'printing' their own money." - Modern Money Mechanics, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.

"The Federal Reserve is answerable to no one." - Ronald Reagan

"The Great Depression was not accidental, it was a carefully contrived occurrence. The international Bankers sought to bring about a condition of despair here so that they might emerge as rulers of us all." - Louis McFadden

"The only thing that is necessary for evil to triumph is for men of good will to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace in a continual state of alarm (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing them with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H. L. Mencken

"The youth who can solve the money question will do more for the world than all the professional soldiers of history." - Henry Ford Sr.

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root." - Henry David Thoreau

"There are two methods, or means and only two, whereby man's needs and desires can be satisfied. One is the production and exchange of wealth; this is the economic means. The other is the uncompensated appropriation of wealth produced by others; this is the banking and political means." - Albert Jay Nock

"To expose a 15 Trillion dollar ripoff of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000 largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business." , Buckminster Fuller

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government." Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

"Tricks and treachery are the practice of fools that don't have brains enough to be honest." - Benjamin Franklin

"Very soon every American will be required to register their biological property in a national system designed to keep track of the people and that will operate under the ancient system of pledging. By such methodology, we can compel people to submit to our agenda, which will affect our security as a charge back for our fiat paper currency. Every American will be forced to register or suffer being able to work and earn a living. They will be our chattels (property) and we will hold the security interest over them forever, by operation of the law merchant under the scheme of secured transactions. Americans, by unknowingly or unwittingly delivering the bills of lading (Birth Certificate) to us will be rendered bankrupt and insolvent, secured by their pledges. They will be stripped of their rights and given a commercial value designed to make us a profit and they will be none the wiser, for not one man in a million could ever figure our plans and, if by accident one or two should figure it out, we have in our arsenal plausible deniability. After all, this is the only logical way to fund government, by floating liens and debts to the registrants in the form of benefits and privileges. This will inevitably reap us huge profit beyond our wildest expectations and leave every American a contributor to this fraud, which we will call 'Social Insurance'. Without realizing it, every American will unknowingly be our servant, however begrudgingly. The people will become helpless and without any hope for their redemption and we will employ the high office (presidency) of our dummy corporation (USA) to foment this plot against America." - Colonel Edward Mandel House

"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries." - David Rockefeller, Trilateral Commission Founder, 1991

"We are now permitted to own gold again only because the intention is to force the Canadian/American people onto a strict gold standard while we do not have enough gold to permit this system to operate even marginally. Forcing us onto a gold standard, under the guise of our 'proven' inability to manage debt, will complete the destruction of the middle class and finish our subjection to the International Bankers and the UN." - Howard Freeman.

"We are on the verge of a Global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order." - David Rockefeller to the United Nations Business Council on September 23, 1994

"We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." - Winston Churchill

"We fix the price of gold and silver to make them valuable or not." - J. P. Morgan, in a letter to his son

"We have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. They are not government institutions. They are private monopolies which prey upon the people of these United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign customers. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government, and it has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." - Senator Louis T. McFadden, Chairman US Banking & Currency Commission

"The principle we must keep in mind is that two people cannot both be the exclusive owner of the same thing at the same time. Yet fractional reserve banking operates on the theory that bank account holder A and borrower B can both own the same money at the same time. This practice is just as fraudulent as selling two buyers the same vacation home and giving them both exclusive title to the home and hoping that they don't both show up to use it the same weekend. With fractional reserve banking, titles to money (gold) are spuriously created, meaning there are more titles to property than there is actual property. In fact, no new money is created, but the number of titles to existing money is expanded. And it is in this manner that the value of the dollar is diminished. In the absence of a gold standard, the crime is exceeded today to the point of absurdity, as only titles themselves are traded with no tie to any real property whatsoever. We have been swindled." -

"We shall have world government whether or not you like it… the only question is whether or not it be by conquest or consent." - James Warburg, Rothschild Banking Agent, 1950

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first thing to be bought and sold are legislators." - P.J. O'Rourke

"When the people fear the government, there is Tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is Liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

"When you control opinion, as corporate America controls opinion in the United States by owning the media, you can make the masses believe almost anything you want, and guide them as you please." - Gore Vidal

"When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in our account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money." - "Putting it Simply", Boston Federal Reserve Bank

"You are a den of vipers and thieves. I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God, I will rout you out. If the American people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning." - Andrew Jackson

"In the U.S. today, we have in effect two governments. We have the duly constituted government, then we have an independent, uncontrolled and uncoordinated government in the Federal Reserve, operating the money powers which are reserved to congress by the Constitution." - Congressman Wright Patman

"Money is not based on gold anymore; money is only an idea. Ideas are not scarce. There should be no shortage of money to lubricate the gears of commerce any more than there should be a shortage of imagination. Today money is created on computers and paper, and since it is so easy to create, no one should have a right to charge interest on its creation. Yet, that is what the Federal Reserve System does - loans money to the people, charges interest on it, and puts the working public into debt just for being given permission to build for itself its own prosperity." -

"If you do nothing when you have a chance, is your plan to wait until there are no more chances to do something?" -

"If you're in a card game and you can't figure out who the patsy is, you're it." - Warren Buffett

"A tyrant is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader." - Plato, The Republic

"The ultimate ignorance is the rejection of something you know nothing about and refuse to investigate." - Dr. Wayne Dyer.

"Each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand mediocre minds appointed to guard the past." - Maurice Maeterlinck.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams

"What you can't imagine, you can't discover." - Albert Einstein

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him." - Robert Heinlein

"In times of universal deceit, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

"I find it hard to understand why those who demand Unitary Education by the State do not also demand a Unitary Press by the State… Either the State is infallible, in which case we could not do better than to submit to it the entire domain of intelligent thought, or it is not, in which case it is no more rational to hand over education to it than the press." - Frederic Bastiat

"A government big enough to give us everything we want is a government big enough to take from us everything we have." - President Gerald Ford

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again." - Andre Gide

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance or conscientious stupidity." - Martin Luther King Jr.

"I must study war and politics so that my children shall be free to study commerce, agriculture and other practicalities, so that their children can study painting, poetry and other fine things." - John Adams, U.S. President

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin, 1755

"A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves." - Bertrand de Jouvenel

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad." - James Madison

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will one day reach himself." - Thomas Paine [/FONT]

 

[dogman6126]

I could go on and on for hours about this stuff but it is real as i have demonstrated but you won't hear it talked about in the mainstream media because the cabal bought the mainstream media.

This stuff is not proof. It is literally all based on conjecture with some factual listings of events being taken out of context. Proof of this is shown by your using videos of people twisting the words of the CDC official and the Bill Gates video. I'm not going to argue with each of your points, it would be endless. Every one of your supposed proofs are words taken out of context trying to find some "hidden meaning" with a previous assumption that some group is out to get you. That is why conspiracy theories are never taken seriously in the scientific community. You think your doing science, but your not.

I think you are getting too caught up in the wakefiled case; the vaccine debate does not hinge on the wakefiled case

The validity of the Wakefield case was your last point that still held weight on the topic of vaccine toxicity.

One of the criticsms of it was that it was not a large enough sample base but there have been other studies since supporting wakefeilds claims

Seeing as you have also quoted an evidence that wakefield's study is unreliable, I will take that as an agreement on your part that his study is not reliable and therefore inadmissible to the point of vaccine toxicity.

Ridiculous because it proves that the CDC know that vaccines can give vaccine induced fevers to children with mitochondrial disorders who can then develop autism as a result?

That was a misrepresentation of the case by the video. I will address that misrepresentation in my next post.

The new Godzilla movie is apparently propaganda to play on fears over climate change which is a big thing for the cabal who want to use it as the excuse to bring in global government (unelected of course!) and impose carbon taxes on everyone (except themselves of course!)

I don't have a clue how this is relevant or even accurate. That movie had absolutely nothing to do with carbon emissions or climate change. Have you even seen the movie, or is this comment just more smoke blowing?

As to the movie, it was entertaining, however it wasn't anything special in my opinion.

 

[dogman6126]

Argh I just accidentally deleted my entire post. NOT happy . I will remake it later. I have to do work now.

 

[muir]

http://www.naturalnews.com/045434_influenza_vaccines_pregnant_women_mercury.h tml#

[h=1]Irrefutable proof that influenza vaccines routinely given to pregnant women still contain mercury[/h]

Believe it or not, there are still millions of people, doctors, pharmacists and even journalists who do not yet realize there is a very high concentration of mercury in influenza vaccines given to pregnant women. Most people, you see, have been lied to by the media which has stated over and over again that mercury was removed from all vaccines.

Not true.

It's still there. And toxic mercury is present in influenza vaccines at a level that's literally 25,000 times higher than the EPA limit of mercury in drinking water. (1) It's 100 times higher than the highest level of mercury contamination I've ever tested in ocean fish.

To prove the presence of mercury in influenza vaccines, I'm going to show you four irrefutable pieces of evidence:

1) Photographs of a 2013 / 2014 influenza vaccine box admitting, in very small print, to the addition of mercury to the vaccine as a preservative.

2) Photographs of the influenza vaccine insert once again repeating the admission that the vaccine contains mercury.

3) A screen shot from the Centers for Disease Control website which admits that vaccines still contain the following ingredients: Aluminum, Antibiotics, Egg Protein, Formaldehyde, Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) and Thimerosal, a mercury-containing chemical compound.

4) Lab results from the Natural News Forensic Food Lab which confirmed almost precisely the same level of mercury claimed by the manufacturer (GlaxoSmithKline).

Before I show you the irrefutable evidence, there is some good news in all this testing. As part of this Natural News investigation, I tested several different vaccines, including an HPV vaccine. Mercury levels were extremely low in these other vaccines. Only the flu shot contained extremely high mercury levels. (More results will be released on other vaccines shortly...)

[h=1]Influenza vaccine box admits safety never established for pregnant women[/h]As you can see below, the box for this Flulaval Influenza Virus Vaccine readily admits the use of thimerosal which contains mercury. (Of course, you have to use a magnifying glass to see this.) In microscopic text on the package insert, it says straight out, "Register women who receive Flulaval while pregnant in the pregnancy registry by calling 1-888-452-9622."

Yet, at the same time, the insert also admits that "safety and efficacy have not been established in pregnant women."

In other words, this vaccine containing mercury is being promoted for use in pregnant women even when no safety in pregnant women has ever been established.

It's also important to note that when people are being given flu shots, they are never handed the package or the insert, so they have no opportunity to read any of this information unless they specifically ask for it.

It's not like a food item with a "Nutrition Facts" label. Vaccines are sold in "stealth" mode where patients have no idea what's in them and no opportunity to read possible warnings.

As further proof of this point, consider the fact that this flu vaccine comes with only one insert, yet it's a 10-dose vial intended to be injected into 10 different people. Clearly, if there's only one insert but 10 people, then 9 out of 10 people can't possibly be handed the insert.

In fact, from a legal perspective, vaccines are routinely injected into people without informed consent. Virtually no one administering vaccines ever explains the risks vs. benefits of vaccines as is required under medical ethics and state medical law. In nearly all cases, patients are simply hoodwinked and told there are no risks at all.

[h=1]Vaccine insert also admits use of thimerosal and formaldehyde[/h]The second piece of evidence to reveal here is the package insert for the influenza vaccine, a document printed in microscopic text that's almost impossible to read without a magnifying glass.

Of course, the intention is that no one ever read this document, because it contains shocking admissions of the total quackery and marketing deception behind flu shots.

As you can see from this snapshot, the package insert readily admits that each vaccine dose "contains 50 mcg thimerosal (<25 mcg mercury)."

In case you're wondering, "mcg" means micrograms. A microgram is 1/1000th of a milligram. Mercury is toxic at any dose when injected into the body, even in micrograms. There is no such thing as a "safe" form of mercury when injected. In fact, the ethyl form of mercury used in vaccines is many times more toxic than methyl form once it enters human cells. Click here for a fascinating interview with mercury toxicity expert Dr. Chris Shade who explains this.

The same paragraph shown above also admits the vaccine contains formaldehyde, a potent neurotoxic chemical.

[h=1]Vaccine insert admits safety and effectiveness have never been established[/h]What's even more astonishing about this insert is that it openly admits the flu shot is a complete medical hoax, backed by nothing but voodoo woo woo faith-based dogma (and clever marketing).

Here are actual words from the insert (which is much more lengthy than the snapshot shown above):

"There have been no controlled trials adequately demonstrating a decrease in influenza disease after vaccination with Flulaval."

"Safety and effectiveness of Flulaval have not been established in pregnant women, nursing mothers or children."

"Safety and effectiveness of Flulaval in pediatric patients have not been established."

"Flulaval has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or for impairment of fertility."

"Do not administer Flulaval to anyone... following previous administration of any influenza vaccine."

[h=1]CDC admits use of mercury, MSG, formaldehyde[/h]For those "mercury denialists" who still can't believe flu shots given to pregnant women contain high concentrations of toxic mercury, even the CDC reluctantly admits this fact on its own website.

Here's a screen shot from the CDC's vaccine additives page, which miraculously hasn't yet been yanked off their site:

[h=1]Laboratory results from the Natural News Forensic Food Lab[/h]The final piece of irrefutable evidence on all this comes from my own scientific laboratory, where I run ICP-MS instrumentation to test foods, beverages, dietary supplements and other items for heavy metals contamination.

I was the first food researcher to document high levels of tungsten in brown rice protein, and I've exposed alarming levels of lead in pet treats. I've also exposed high lead in ginkgo biloba herbal supplements imported from China.

When I finally got around to testing vaccines, I was shocked to find over 51,000 ppb mercury in the Influenza Virus Vaccine.

Why was I shocked? Because I don't recall ever seeing anything run through my ICP-MS instrument with that high a concentration of mercury. The mercury in this flu vaccine was the HIGHEST concentration of mercury I've ever seen in anything, period!

And this is a product that's injected directly into the bodies of pregnant women, where mercury goes right into the developing fetus. Amazing, huh?

What's even more interesting is that this finding once again confirms the accuracy of my lab instrumentation because it's almost in perfect agreement with the level of mercury detailed on the vaccine package insert.

Let's do the math together:

* Each dose of an influenza vaccine is 0.5 mL in volume
* My lab found just over 50 ppm of mercury in the vaccine liquid.
* 50 ppm (concentration) x 0.5 mL (volume) equals 25 mcg of mercury.

Guess what the package insert says? (Up to) 25 mcg of mercury per dose. Near-perfect agreement, in other words. My finding of 51 ppm rather than 50 ppm either means my own tests were off by about 2% (which is still considered very accurate for ICP-MS testing) or that GSK put 2% extra mercury into the vaccine.

And just so you know I actually did the tests, here's what else we found with other analytes:

Aluminum: 0.4 ppm
Arsenic: zero
Cadmium: zero
Lead: zero

So, I can confidently say that the flu vaccine won't poison you with lead, cadmium or arsenic because it contains none of those things. Even the aluminum level is quite low and not a concern at this very low level. The real problem is just the mercury, at least as far as elements go.

[h=1]Why won't vaccine makers remove the mercury?[/h]Good question. Everybody knows mercury is toxic to inject into the human body. That's not debated except by irrational anti-science denialists who refuse to acknowledge the Table of Elements.

You have to wonder: why choose mercury as a preservative? And why do both the CDC and FDA continue to look the other way as an entire branch of modern medicine poisons our women and children with a neurotoxic heavy metal?

And if vaccine promoters, propagandists and patent holders want the world to accept all their vaccines, why don't they just remove the mercury and be done with it? If they take out all the toxic elements, resistance to vaccines would all but evaporate.

[h=1]Why vaccines are the "anti-science" medical voodoo of the modern world[/h]Ever wonder why they don't conduct legitimate clinical trials on flu vaccine efficacy? Probably because they know the results would have to be faked to show any efficacy at all. That's what Merck did with its mumps vaccines, according to two former virologists who worked there. They spiked human blood samples with animal antibodies to fabricate positive results. Yep, vaccines work so poorly that even the manufacturers have to fake their own results to show any efficacy.

Vaccines are the one medicine where no scientific evidence of safety or efficacy is required by anyone: not the FDA, not the CDC and not the media. Congress even passed a law protecting the vaccine industry with absolute legal immunity, even when they manufacture and sell defective products that injure and kill people.

[video=youtube;xv_IaLHwgAQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_IaLHwgAQ[/video]

How's that for medicine we can all trust? Think about it: this is a product that contains multiple neurotoxins in very high concentrations; a product backed by no safety trials or efficacy data; a product linked to numerous serious adverse reactions; and yet a product that enjoys absolute legal immunity thanks to the U.S. government.

If that's not outright medical quackery, I don't know what is.

For the record, I'm not an opponent of all vaccines. But I do believe -- as do a rapidly increasing number of other clear-thinking people -- that medicine should not poison our women and children. It's time for mercury to be removed from all vaccines, once and for all. Anything less is medical negligence.

[h=1]Natural News content secret: vaccine stories go viral when they tell the truth[/h]Ever wonder why most of my stories on vaccines go viral across the 'net? The answer is simple: People are hungry for the truth, and even when desperate naysayers try to attack what I'm saying, all they do is send more people to Natural News to check out the facts. Those people then discover the truth and share it.

When the facts are on your side, you will always win over more people to your message of truth. And when it comes to mercury in vaccines -- and the hilarious medical hoax that claims flu shots are safe and effective -- the truth is printed right on the package insert, in black and white. Every time we print the truth, we gain more amazing fans and readers who keep sharing that truth with others. We are powered by all those who seek the truth and seek to protect and defend our children and our planet from toxic chemicals and heavy metals.

It's also a truism that the 99% don't trust the lying 1% who run drug companies in the first place! Everybody knows the drug companies are criminal operations. The U.S. Dept. of Justice has proven that over and over again with criminal felony prosecutions and billion-dollar settlements against the world's top vaccine manufacturers (including GlaxoSmithKline).

That's primarily how we've grown from zero readers to over 7 million monthly readers: by boldly telling the truth and trusting in the intelligence of readers to recognize the difference between compassionate truth and for-profit corporate propaganda.

Ultimately, We the People will be victorious in the removal of mercury from all vaccines -- an idea that's already well accepted across much of Europe. And when that day comes, it will be yet another victory for the Natural News fan base, an amazing community of millions of remarkable people working together for the protection of our children, our health and our world.

​

​

​

 

[dogman6126]

http://www.naturalnews.com/045434_influenza_vaccines_pregnant_women_mercury.h tml#

[h=1]Irrefutable proof that influenza vaccines routinely given to pregnant women still contain mercury[/h]

Believe it or not, there are still millions of people, doctors, pharmacists and even journalists who do not yet realize there is a very high concentration of mercury in influenza vaccines given to pregnant women. Most people, you see, have been lied to by the media which has stated over and over again that mercury was removed from all vaccines.

Not true.

It's still there. And toxic mercury is present in influenza vaccines at a level that's literally 25,000 times higher than the EPA limit of mercury in drinking water. (1) It's 100 times higher than the highest level of mercury contamination I've ever tested in ocean fish.

To prove the presence of mercury in influenza vaccines, I'm going to show you four irrefutable pieces of evidence:

1) Photographs of a 2013 / 2014 influenza vaccine box admitting, in very small print, to the addition of mercury to the vaccine as a preservative.

2) Photographs of the influenza vaccine insert once again repeating the admission that the vaccine contains mercury.

3) A screen shot from the Centers for Disease Control website which admits that vaccines still contain the following ingredients: Aluminum, Antibiotics, Egg Protein, Formaldehyde, Monosodium Glutamate (MSG) and Thimerosal, a mercury-containing chemical compound.

4) Lab results from the Natural News Forensic Food Lab which confirmed almost precisely the same level of mercury claimed by the manufacturer (GlaxoSmithKline).

Before I show you the irrefutable evidence, there is some good news in all this testing. As part of this Natural News investigation, I tested several different vaccines, including an HPV vaccine. Mercury levels were extremely low in these other vaccines. Only the flu shot contained extremely high mercury levels. (More results will be released on other vaccines shortly...)

[h=1]Influenza vaccine box admits safety never established for pregnant women[/h]As you can see below, the box for this Flulaval Influenza Virus Vaccine readily admits the use of thimerosal which contains mercury. (Of course, you have to use a magnifying glass to see this.) In microscopic text on the package insert, it says straight out, "Register women who receive Flulaval while pregnant in the pregnancy registry by calling 1-888-452-9622."

Yet, at the same time, the insert also admits that "safety and efficacy have not been established in pregnant women."

In other words, this vaccine containing mercury is being promoted for use in pregnant women even when no safety in pregnant women has ever been established.

It's also important to note that when people are being given flu shots, they are never handed the package or the insert, so they have no opportunity to read any of this information unless they specifically ask for it.

It's not like a food item with a "Nutrition Facts" label. Vaccines are sold in "stealth" mode where patients have no idea what's in them and no opportunity to read possible warnings.

As further proof of this point, consider the fact that this flu vaccine comes with only one insert, yet it's a 10-dose vial intended to be injected into 10 different people. Clearly, if there's only one insert but 10 people, then 9 out of 10 people can't possibly be handed the insert.

In fact, from a legal perspective, vaccines are routinely injected into people without informed consent. Virtually no one administering vaccines ever explains the risks vs. benefits of vaccines as is required under medical ethics and state medical law. In nearly all cases, patients are simply hoodwinked and told there are no risks at all.

[h=1]Vaccine insert also admits use of thimerosal and formaldehyde[/h]The second piece of evidence to reveal here is the package insert for the influenza vaccine, a document printed in microscopic text that's almost impossible to read without a magnifying glass.

Of course, the intention is that no one ever read this document, because it contains shocking admissions of the total quackery and marketing deception behind flu shots.

As you can see from this snapshot, the package insert readily admits that each vaccine dose "contains 50 mcg thimerosal (<25 mcg mercury)."

In case you're wondering, "mcg" means micrograms. A microgram is 1/1000th of a milligram. Mercury is toxic at any dose when injected into the body, even in micrograms. There is no such thing as a "safe" form of mercury when injected. In fact, the ethyl form of mercury used in vaccines is many times more toxic than methyl form once it enters human cells. Click here for a fascinating interview with mercury toxicity expert Dr. Chris Shade who explains this.

The same paragraph shown above also admits the vaccine contains formaldehyde, a potent neurotoxic chemical.

[h=1]Vaccine insert admits safety and effectiveness have never been established[/h]What's even more astonishing about this insert is that it openly admits the flu shot is a complete medical hoax, backed by nothing but voodoo woo woo faith-based dogma (and clever marketing).

Here are actual words from the insert (which is much more lengthy than the snapshot shown above):

"There have been no controlled trials adequately demonstrating a decrease in influenza disease after vaccination with Flulaval."

"Safety and effectiveness of Flulaval have not been established in pregnant women, nursing mothers or children."

"Safety and effectiveness of Flulaval in pediatric patients have not been established."

"Flulaval has not been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential, or for impairment of fertility."

"Do not administer Flulaval to anyone... following previous administration of any influenza vaccine."

[h=1]CDC admits use of mercury, MSG, formaldehyde[/h]For those "mercury denialists" who still can't believe flu shots given to pregnant women contain high concentrations of toxic mercury, even the CDC reluctantly admits this fact on its own website.

Here's a screen shot from the CDC's vaccine additives page, which miraculously hasn't yet been yanked off their site:

[h=1]Laboratory results from the Natural News Forensic Food Lab[/h]The final piece of irrefutable evidence on all this comes from my own scientific laboratory, where I run ICP-MS instrumentation to test foods, beverages, dietary supplements and other items for heavy metals contamination.

I was the first food researcher to document high levels of tungsten in brown rice protein, and I've exposed alarming levels of lead in pet treats. I've also exposed high lead in ginkgo biloba herbal supplements imported from China.

When I finally got around to testing vaccines, I was shocked to find over 51,000 ppb mercury in the Influenza Virus Vaccine.

Why was I shocked? Because I don't recall ever seeing anything run through my ICP-MS instrument with that high a concentration of mercury. The mercury in this flu vaccine was the HIGHEST concentration of mercury I've ever seen in anything, period!

And this is a product that's injected directly into the bodies of pregnant women, where mercury goes right into the developing fetus. Amazing, huh?

What's even more interesting is that this finding once again confirms the accuracy of my lab instrumentation because it's almost in perfect agreement with the level of mercury detailed on the vaccine package insert.

Let's do the math together:

* Each dose of an influenza vaccine is 0.5 mL in volume
* My lab found just over 50 ppm of mercury in the vaccine liquid.
* 50 ppm (concentration) x 0.5 mL (volume) equals 25 mcg of mercury.

Guess what the package insert says? (Up to) 25 mcg of mercury per dose. Near-perfect agreement, in other words. My finding of 51 ppm rather than 50 ppm either means my own tests were off by about 2% (which is still considered very accurate for ICP-MS testing) or that GSK put 2% extra mercury into the vaccine.

And just so you know I actually did the tests, here's what else we found with other analytes:

Aluminum: 0.4 ppm
Arsenic: zero
Cadmium: zero
Lead: zero

So, I can confidently say that the flu vaccine won't poison you with lead, cadmium or arsenic because it contains none of those things. Even the aluminum level is quite low and not a concern at this very low level. The real problem is just the mercury, at least as far as elements go.

[h=1]Why won't vaccine makers remove the mercury?[/h]Good question. Everybody knows mercury is toxic to inject into the human body. That's not debated except by irrational anti-science denialists who refuse to acknowledge the Table of Elements.

You have to wonder: why choose mercury as a preservative? And why do both the CDC and FDA continue to look the other way as an entire branch of modern medicine poisons our women and children with a neurotoxic heavy metal?

And if vaccine promoters, propagandists and patent holders want the world to accept all their vaccines, why don't they just remove the mercury and be done with it? If they take out all the toxic elements, resistance to vaccines would all but evaporate.

[h=1]Why vaccines are the "anti-science" medical voodoo of the modern world[/h]Ever wonder why they don't conduct legitimate clinical trials on flu vaccine efficacy? Probably because they know the results would have to be faked to show any efficacy at all. That's what Merck did with its mumps vaccines, according to two former virologists who worked there. They spiked human blood samples with animal antibodies to fabricate positive results. Yep, vaccines work so poorly that even the manufacturers have to fake their own results to show any efficacy.

Vaccines are the one medicine where no scientific evidence of safety or efficacy is required by anyone: not the FDA, not the CDC and not the media. Congress even passed a law protecting the vaccine industry with absolute legal immunity, even when they manufacture and sell defective products that injure and kill people.

[video=youtube;xv_IaLHwgAQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv_IaLHwgAQ[/video]

How's that for medicine we can all trust? Think about it: this is a product that contains multiple neurotoxins in very high concentrations; a product backed by no safety trials or efficacy data; a product linked to numerous serious adverse reactions; and yet a product that enjoys absolute legal immunity thanks to the U.S. government.

If that's not outright medical quackery, I don't know what is.

For the record, I'm not an opponent of all vaccines. But I do believe -- as do a rapidly increasing number of other clear-thinking people -- that medicine should not poison our women and children. It's time for mercury to be removed from all vaccines, once and for all. Anything less is medical negligence.

[h=1]Natural News content secret: vaccine stories go viral when they tell the truth[/h]Ever wonder why most of my stories on vaccines go viral across the 'net? The answer is simple: People are hungry for the truth, and even when desperate naysayers try to attack what I'm saying, all they do is send more people to Natural News to check out the facts. Those people then discover the truth and share it.

When the facts are on your side, you will always win over more people to your message of truth. And when it comes to mercury in vaccines -- and the hilarious medical hoax that claims flu shots are safe and effective -- the truth is printed right on the package insert, in black and white. Every time we print the truth, we gain more amazing fans and readers who keep sharing that truth with others. We are powered by all those who seek the truth and seek to protect and defend our children and our planet from toxic chemicals and heavy metals.

It's also a truism that the 99% don't trust the lying 1% who run drug companies in the first place! Everybody knows the drug companies are criminal operations. The U.S. Dept. of Justice has proven that over and over again with criminal felony prosecutions and billion-dollar settlements against the world's top vaccine manufacturers (including GlaxoSmithKline).

That's primarily how we've grown from zero readers to over 7 million monthly readers: by boldly telling the truth and trusting in the intelligence of readers to recognize the difference between compassionate truth and for-profit corporate propaganda.

Ultimately, We the People will be victorious in the removal of mercury from all vaccines -- an idea that's already well accepted across much of Europe. And when that day comes, it will be yet another victory for the Natural News fan base, an amazing community of millions of remarkable people working together for the protection of our children, our health and our world.

​

​

​

This article was made by someone who obviously didn't understand the way chemistry works. I'm surprised you posted it, we have already gone over everything listed here and it has been accurately refuted. Please see comment #181 of this thread for one of the main arguments against this.

Really the only thing that article got right is yes, the influenza vaccine has mercury in it. However the dangers are misrepresented and skewed.

The fact is muir, vaccines are safe. You have no proof otherwise. Why do you insist on continuing? Is it not at all possible that you misunderstood Bill Gates? That seems to be where you have drawn your conclusion that vaccines are dangerous from. So far I have shown every way you thought vaccines are dangerous was a misunderstanding, and also shown you what Bill Gates actually meant. Unless you can provide new evidence that is irrefutable that vaccines are all dangerous, any good scientist would consider the case closed.

Tomorrow or this weekend I will address the CDC video. It will take a good 2-3 hours to compile the evidence and explain everything asked in that video. I simply do not have the energy right now, I apologize for that. Work is tiring right now....

 

[muir]

This article was made by someone who obviously didn't understand the way chemistry works. I'm surprised you posted it, we have already gone over everything listed here and it has been accurately refuted. Please see comment #181 of this thread for one of the main arguments against this.

Really the only thing that article got right is yes, the influenza vaccine has mercury in it. However the dangers are misrepresented and skewed.

The fact is muir, vaccines are safe. You have no proof otherwise. Why do you insist on continuing? Is it not at all possible that you misunderstood Bill Gates? That seems to be where you have drawn your conclusion that vaccines are dangerous from. So far I have shown every way you thought vaccines are dangerous was a misunderstanding, and also shown you what Bill Gates actually meant. Unless you can provide new evidence that is irrefutable that vaccines are all dangerous, any good scientist would consider the case closed.

Tomorrow or this weekend I will address the CDC video. It will take a good 2-3 hours to compile the evidence and explain everything asked in that video. I simply do not have the energy right now, I apologize for that. Work is tiring right now....

No you have proven nothing

All you have done is ignore the sheer weight of evidence in this thread and pushed your own OPINION using government sanctioned propaganda to do so

All you have done is parrot what the manipulators tell you reality is

YOU have missunderstood Bill Gates not me. You have a lot to say for someone who doesn't even know what the council on foriegn relations is and who didn't know what the NDAA was and who didn't know the government was flying drones over US soil...seriously that stuff is the basics yet you haven't grasped it...you have a lot to learn but you won't achieve it if you are unwilling to listen

Keep your government propaganda....i'm not interested in hearing any more of the lies, i've been listening to that stuff since before you were born

If you think you know what you are talking about then tell me who set up the club of rome...

 

[PeachJam]

On mercury (thiomersal): http://internettheories.blogspot.com/2012/11/flu-vaccines-and-mercury.html

I graduate with my PhD in toxicology in a few months. I made sure my child received the recommended vaccinations. I try to make unbiased, informed decisions, and based on the evidence I've seen, the risk of disease far outweighs the possibility of damage from vaccines.

Consider the greatly increased lifespan worldwide following the introduction of vaccines (and antibiotics). I'm extremely glad I don't have to worry about my child getting measles, etc.

I am not arguing that there haven't been terrible people in government positions throughout history that have attempted to eliminate groups of people for various reasons. However, I thing that vaccines would be a ridiculous way to go about that. There are far less expensive and more efficient ways to kill off large groups of people in untraceable ways that they could make use of if that were their goal. I am far more worried about biological warfare agents.

Just my POV.

 

[dogman6126]

No you have proven nothing

All you have done is ignore the sheer weight of evidence in this thread and pushed your own OPINION using government sanctioned propaganda to do so

All you have done is parrot what the manipulators tell you reality is

What I have been pushing is science, nothing that has to do with the government. You know, the stuff that you learn in college? The way the world works without politics or conspiracy theories. Physics, chemistry, anatomy...that kind of thing. Not what conspiracy videos tell people about how the world supposedly works. Your right, I came in with my own opinion that vaccines are safe, that's normal and expected. However I have considered your perspectives and seen where you got your ideas from. If you refuse to believe science and choose to believe what a conspiracy video said, then that's your choice.

YOU have missunderstood Bill Gates not me. You have a lot to say for someone who doesn't even know what the council on foriegn relations is and who didn't know what the NDAA was and who didn't know the government was flying drones over US soil...seriously that stuff is the basics yet you haven't grasped it...you have a lot to learn but you won't achieve it if you are unwilling to listen

None of this has anything to do with this conversation! We are talking about science and medicine. Your right, I don't know much about politics, and I have admitted that in another thread. However, I am versed in science and medicine if only in just an intermediate level. I don't claim to be an expert, but I am knowledgeable enough to talk about such a simple topic as vaccine toxicity and immune responses.
If you classify a persons intelligence by their knowledge of politics, then you have more skewed views than I expected. I choose not to believe that is so. Because I want to believe the better of you, that leads me to the conclusion that you are using this comment as a way to needle and insult me in an attempt to cover your own inability to prove the point of this conversation. By trying to make me sound less intelligent in your own mind makes it easier for you to go with your own perspective and dismiss mine. That proves you never truly considered what I am saying. This implies that no matter what I could say, you would never change your mind. I kept my mind open whenever you were reasonable. I stayed with your debate of the Wakefield paper even though to me it was clear cut. I stayed with your debate on thermisol even though scientifically it is illogical to reach such a conclusion with sufficient knowledge of chemistry and medicine. I regret that you did not offer me the same courtesy. You dismiss my ideas because they disagree with yours on the basis that I am "being fed lies by the government conspiracy". I dismissed your ideas because they disagreed with science. If you still can't see that, then that says just how closed minded you are.

Keep your government propaganda....i'm not interested in hearing any more of the lies, i've been listening to that stuff since before you were born

If you think you know what you are talking about then tell me who set up the club of rome...

What are you talking about?! This isn't relevant to the discussion either. Last I checked, we were talking about the supposed toxicity of vaccines. None of which you have proved. Your supposed conspiracy theories, which are off topic by the way, in no way prove vaccine toxicity. Your resorting to those because those are your base assumptions. You came into the discussion with your misinterpretation of what Bill Gates said, and looked for any evidence to support yourv belief without considering the alternative. That is confirmation bias by definition. Proof of this behavior is your use of the Wakefield paper. You used it as evidence when the paper was retracted long ago as fraudulent.
Since I have disproved all of your supposed reasons to say vaccines are toxic, you have resorted to the base assumption of which your argument is based. You have shown this by using your conspiracy theory as an attempt to prove vaccine toxicity (of which it doesn't even relate beyond a side comment by Bill Gates). By doing this, you have shown you are not using science. Science is when you use evidence, actual physical evidence, not some conspiracy theory that is unprovable, and is based on conjecture and twisting of words by people in an attempt to search for something that might or might not be there. Sometimes the desire of a conspiracy theorist is fear mongering, sometimes it is just the person honestly misinterpreting a situation, and sometimes it could be something else. All the same, it does not prove anything in this discussion.
I don't claim to know if your conspiracy theories are right or wrong. This discussion is not about that. All I know is based on the evidence I have read and seen, vaccines are not toxic.

 

[muir]

http://www.aapsonline.org/vaccines/cdcfdaexperts.htm

[h=3]Selected vaccine authorities from CDC, FDA, and manufacturers discuss, in a closed meeting, the possibility of neurodevelopment disorders resulting from vaccine components.[/h] Emphasis and comments in square brackets added by K.P. Stoller, M.D.
[The CDC published a study in late 2003, repudiating any possible link between thimerosal and developmental problems such as autism, but the CDC did have data supporting such a link which it secretively kept from the public.
Documents released through the Freedom of Information Act detail the transcript of a meeting held in June of 2000 between members of the CDC, the FDA, and representatives from the vaccine industry.
This top secret meeting was held to discuss a study done by Dr. Thomas Verstraeten and his co-workers using Vaccine Safety Datalink data as a project collaboration between the CDC's National Immunization Program (NIP) and four HMOs. The study examined the records of 110,000 children.
The transcript is titled “Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information,” June 7-8, 2000, Simpsonwood Retreat Center, Norcross, Georgia, but it was also the first official meeting of the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices which sets CDC policy) work group on thimerosal and immunization. In attendance were Walter Orenstein, Director of the National Immunization Program (NIP) at the CDC; John Modlin, Chair of the ACIP and on the faculty at Dartmouth Medical School; and 50 other distinguished members of the government (11 consultants from the CDC), academia and the pharmaceutical industry. Vaccine industry representatives were: Harry Guess, M.D., Merck, Chief of Epidemiology; Jo White, M.D., North American Vaccine, Clinical Dev. & Research; Barbara Howe, M.D., Smith, Kline-Beecham, Clinical Research Group; Mike Blum, M.D., Wyeth, Safety and Surveillance for Vaccine Development.
Although this conference is apparently concerned with the effects of mercury in the form of thimerosal on infant brain development, participants seemed to have limited knowledge about mercury. None of the well known experts were invited, such as Dr. Ascher from Bowman Grey School of Medicine or Dr. Boyd Haley, who has done extensive work on the toxic effects of low concentrations on the CNS.
The conference followed a study that showed that mercury in vaccines may have caused neurodevelopment problems.
The following are in context excerpts of this 260 page transcript:]

Dr. Orenstein pg 1-2 “(For) those who don’t know, initial concerns were raised last summer that mercury, as methylmercury (thimerosal) in vaccines, might exceed safe levels. As a result of these concerns, CDC undertook, in collaboration with investigators in the Vaccine safety Datalink, an effort to evaluate whether there were any health risks from mercury on any of these vaccines. Analysis to date raise some concerns of possible dose-response effect of increasing levels of mehylmercury in vaccines and certain neurologic diagnosis. Therefore, the purpose of this meeting is to have a careful scientific review of the data.”
Dr. Bernier pg 8 : (Associate Director for Science in the NIP) “There was a Congressional Action in 1997 requiring the FDA to review Mercury in drugs and biologics…in October of 1999 the ACIP looked this situation over again and… said the vaccines could be continued to be used.”
Dr. Johnston, pg. 14-15 & 19-20: (Chair of the meeting and a pediatrician-immunologist at the University of Colorado): “Thimerosal is cleaved (in the body) into ethylmercury and thiosalicylate which is inactive… The data on its toxicity (shows) it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death.”
“It is particularly a concern in multi-dose vials because of the issue of re-entry multiple times in the vials, and it is also important in the manufacturing process for a number of vaccine including inactivated influenza and some of the earlier DPT vaccine, and is a constituent of all DPT vaccines, but not all DTAP vaccines.”
“There are three licensed preservative in the United States, Thimerosal, ethyl and phenol. We won't talk about the other two today, but I thought I should mention them. Thimerosal is the most active and it has been utilized in vaccines since the 1930's.”
“Acutely, it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death, from overdose…”
“Dr. Halsey made a very impassioned plea that we do carefully controlled studies to in fact address the issues specifically, and that such studies be conducted by neurodevelopmentalists and environmental scientists employing specific endpoints of their study…”
“We just recently had another meeting that some of you were able to attend dealing with aluminum in vaccines. I would like to just say one or two words about that before I conclude.”
“We learned at that meeting a number of important things about aluminum, and I think they also are important in our considerations today. “Aluminum salts are important in the formulating process of vaccines, both in antigen stabilization and absorption of endotoxin.”
“Aluminum and mercury are often simultaneously administered to infants, both at the same site and at different sites.”
“However, we also learned that there is absolutely no data, including animal data, about the potential for synergy, additively or antagonism, all of which can occur in binary metal mixtures that relate and allow us to draw any conclusions from the simultaneous exposure to these two salts in vaccines…”
Dr. Weil, pg. 24: “I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem.”
“The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 31: “It is sort of interesting that when I first came to the CDC as a NIS officer a year ago only, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but one of the things I knew I didn’t want to do was studies that had to do with toxicology or environmental health. Now it turns out that other people also thought that this study was not the right thing to do, so what I will present to you is the study that nobody thought we should do.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposure and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposures at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 42: “But for one thing that is for sure, there is certainly an under-ascertainment of all of these because some of the children are just not old enough to be diagnosed. So the crude incidence rates are probably much lower that what you would expect because the cohort is still very young.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 44: “Now for speech delays, which is the largest single disorder in this category of neurologic delays. The results are a suggestion of a trend with a small dip. The overall test for trend is highly statistically significant above one.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 45: "What this represents is the overall category of developmental delays, of which I have excluded speech delays because of the impression we had was some of the calculations were driven by this speech group, which was making up about half of this category. After excluding this speech group, the trend is also apparent in this group and the test for trend is also significant for this category excluding speech.”
Dr. Weil, pg. 75: “I think that what you are saying is in term of chronic exposure. I think that the alternative scenario is that this repeated acute exposures, and like many repeated acute exposures, if you consider a dose of 25 micrograms on one day, then you are above threshold. At least we think you are, and then you do that over and over to a series of neurons where the toxic effect may be the same set of neurons or the same set of neurologic processes; it is conceivable that the more mercury you get, the more effect you are going to get.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 76: “What I have done here, I am putting into the model instead of mercury, a number of antigens that the children received, and what do we get? Not surprisingly, we get very similar estimates as what we got for Thimerosal because every vaccine put in the equation has Thimerosal. So for speech and the other ones maybe it’s not so significant, but for the overall group it is also significant….Here we have the same thing, but instead of number of antigens, number of shots. Just the number of vaccinations given to a child, which is also for nearly all of them significantly related.”
Dr. Guess, pg. 77: "So this essentially is a 7% risk per antigen, an antigen is like in DPT you've got three antigens."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "Correct."
Dr. Egan, pg. 77: "Could you do this calculation for aluminum?"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "I did it for aluminum…Actually the results were almost identical to ethylmercury because the amount of aluminum goes along almost exactly with the mercury one."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 78-79: "Then the last slide I wanted to show, there was a question of it there was any way from this data that we could estimate what would happen in the future if there is Thimerosal-free Hep B and Thimerosal-free haemophilus influenza vaccine and only DTP has Thimerosal"
"The second column would be the same scenario but now at six months. Assuming they have received two additional DPTs, so between three and six months of age they have increased their ethylmercury amounts by 50 micrograms. If I do in this current cohort with all its limitations, because there is also the Hep B that exists in the cohort*, I can't really take it out. It is significant for this one disorder which is language delay and is a combination of these two disorders, also becomes significant."
* Dr. Verstraeten could not determine which children got Hep B at birth in some cases so it was difficult to back the birth dose of Hep B out of the data.
Dr. Bernier, pg. 113: "We have asked you to keep this information confidential. We do have a plan for discussing these data at the upcoming meeting of the Advisory Committee of Immunization Practices on June 21 and June 22. At that time CDC plans to make a public release of this information*, so I think it would serve all of our interests best if we could continue to consider these data. The ACIP work group will be considering also. If we could consider these data in a certain protected environment. So we are asking people who have a great job protecting this information up until now, to continue to do that until the time of the ACIP meeting. So to basically consider this embargoed information. That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations."
[*This never happened. SafeMind.org obtained this transcript via the Freedom of Information Act. Data published later were diluted into insignificance by including additional data from an HMO that had very uncharacteristic results.]
Dr. Keller, pgs. 116 & 118: "…we know the developing neurologic system is more sensitive than one that is fully developed…"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 142: "But if I can have the next slide, here instead of the proportional hazard model, we did a logistic regression model. I didn't use person time here and it's a bit tough to define exactly the control group. However, if I do it for all ages and not looking at different years, and this is for speech, the outcome is almost identical to the proportional hazard model, which suggests to me that it is not a question of bringing the diagnosis forward, but it is really the overall number that drives this estimate."
Dr. Rapin, pg. 143: "I would like to make a comment. We have been focusing on all these acquired causes including mercury and prematurity, and you had a list of confounding variables that should be considered in future studies. What we know today about all of the developmental disorders is that environmental factors are in fact rather unimportant in the case of these deficits and the major cause is genetic…I find it a little difficult knowing this and putting in autism. The major cause is not environmental, it is genetic and that we are focusing just on these environment events or adventitious events when we haven't considered, and you told us that you don't have data for example on siblings, your study does not lend itself to considering the major variable."
Dr. Johnson, pg 144: "Well, I think the assumption is that those genetic predispositions would be randomly distributed."
Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: "But you don't know that."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 144: "No, that's an interesting assumption."
Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: "I understand that, but you don't know that."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 144: "just on principle, Dr. Rapin, it seems to me that the more we learn about genetics or the more we learn about let's say autism, the more we shift towards focusing on genetic causes, but would you rule out the possibility, and let's move away from autism, that some of these are genetic predisposition and then the second hit?"
Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: "Not at all. I think that it is in fact an attractive hypothesis."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 145: "Right, thank you."
Dr. Chen, pg. 151: "One of the reasons that led me personally to not be so quick to dismiss the findings was that on his own Tom independently picked three different outcomes that he did not think could be associated with mercury and three out of three had a different pattern across different exposure levels as compared to the ones that again on a priority basis we picked as biologically plausible to be due to mercury exposure."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: "Wasn't it true that if you looked at the population that had 25 micrograms you had a certain risk and when you got to 75 micrograms you had a higher risk."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: "Yes, absolutely, but these are all at the same time. Measured at the same age at least."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: I understand that, but they are different exposures."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: "Yes."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: "What is your explanation? What explanations would you give for that?"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: "Personally, I have three hypotheses. My first hypothesis is it is parental bias. The children that are more likely to be vaccinated are more likely to be picked and diagnosed. Second hypothesis, I don't know. There is a bias that I have not recognized, and nobody has yet told me about it. Third hypothesis. It's true, it's Thimerosal. Those are my hypotheses."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: "If it's true, which or what mechanisms would you explain the finding with?"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 162: "You are asking for biological plausibility?"
Dr. Brent, pg. 162: "Well, yes."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 162: "When I saw this, and I went back through the literature, I was actually stunned by what I saw because I thought it is plausible. First of all there is the Faeroe study, which I think people have dismissed too easily, and there is a new article in the same Journal that was presented here, the Journal of Pediatrics, where they have looked at PCB. They have looked at other contaminants in seafood and they have adjusted for that, and still mercury comes out. That is one point. Another point is that in many of the studies with animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals were exposed. Now, I don't know how much you can extrapolate that from animals to humans, but that tells me mercury at one month of age is not the same as mercury at three months, at 12 months, prenatal mercury, later mercury. There is a whole range of plausible outcomes from mercury. On top of that, I think that we cannot so easily compare the U.S. population to Faeroe or Seychelles populations. We have different mean levels of exposure. We are comparing high to high in the Seychelles, high to high in the Faeroe and low to low in the U.S., so I am not sure how easily you can transpose one finding to another one. So basically to me that leaves all the options open, and that means I can not exclude such a possible effect."
Dr. Orenstein, pg. 184: "Well, the second issue is we don't know causality. We don't know about causality, but is this something that really warrants some urgent attention?"
Dr. Clover, pg. 187: "…no one around here is going to say that mercury per say is not a concern."
Dr. Weil, pg. 187 & 188: "Although the data presents a number of uncertainties, there is adequate consistency, biological plausibility, a lack of relationship with phenomenon not expected to be related, and a potential causal role that is as good as any other hypothesized etiology of explanation of the noted associations. In addition, the possibility that the associations could be causal has major significance for public and professional acceptance of Thimerosal containing vaccines. I think that is a critical issue. Finally, lack of further study would be horrendous grist for the anti-vaccination bill. That's why we need to go on, and urgently I would add.*
Dr. Brent, pg. 188-191: "I am impressed with the fact that some people here have information and believe that like the incidence of learning difficulties, behavior disorders and attention deficit is increasing in our population. I don't know whether it is or it isn't, but that kind of information you just can't throw around and say it's true or isn't true without data. And it is such an important area in our society. I mean it is the thing that makes a human being different from the other species, so it is such an important area of research…"
"…(thimerosal) Causing learning disabilities and behavioral disorders. ADD is a tremendous problem in our society and I think it is one that we should be very concerned about."
"Finally, the thing that concerns me the most, those who know me, I have been a pin stick in the litigation community because of the nonsense of our litigious society. This will be a resource to our very busy plaintiff attorneys in this country when this information becomes available. They want business and this could potentially be a lot of business."
Dr. Koller, pg. 192: "…As you increase the vaccination, you increase effects, but you don't know. You have modified live viruses. You have different antigens. There is a lot of things in those vaccinations other than mercury, and we don't know whether this is a vaccination effect or a mercury effect. But I am almost sure it is not a mercury effect. Positive as a matter of fact, and there are several experts particularly that have reviewed this, the methylmercury aspect who would agree with that due to dose response."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 193: "Are you really comfortable with the way the neurologic function was tested in the Seychelles?"
Dr. Koller, pg. 193: "I have to admit that there were many other tests that could have been conducted…We are talking about very subjective, very sensitive assays and yes, there could have been others done and there should be more done…"
Dr. Johnson, pg. 198: "This association leads me to favor a recommendation that infants up to two years old not be immunized with Thimerosal containing vaccines if suitable alternative preparations are available.”
“My gut feeling? It worries me enough. Forgive this personal comment, but I got called out at eight o'clock for an emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by C-section. Our first male in the line of the next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for this internationally, but in the meantime I think I want that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines."
Dr. Bernier, pg 198: "the negative findings need to be pinned down and published."
Dr. Weil, pg. 207: "The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other substances, so that I think you can't accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn't out of the ordinary."
Dr. Weil, pg. 208: "The rise in the frequency of neurobehavioral disorders whether it is ascertainment or real, is not too bad. It is much too graphic. We don't see that kind of genetic change in 30 years."
Dr. Brent, pg. 229: "The medical/legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child's neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find junk scientist who would support the claim with "a reasonable degree of certainty". But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned."
Dr. Meyers, pg. 231: "Can I go back to the core issue about the research? My own concern, and a couple of you said it, there is an association between vaccines and outcome that worries both parents and pediatricians. We don’t really know what that outcome is, but it is one that worries us and there is an association with vaccines. We keep jumping back to Thimerosal, but a number of us are concerned that Thimerosal may be less likely than some of the potential associations that have been made. Some of the potential associations are number of injections, number of antigens, other additives. We mentioned aluminum and I mentioned yesterday aluminum and mercury. Antipyretics and analgesics are better utilized when vaccines are given. And then every body mentioned all of the ones that we can't think about in this quick time period that are a part of this association, and yet all of the questions I hear we are asking have to do with Thimerosal. My concern is we need to ask the questions about the other potential associations, because we are going to the Thimerosal-free vaccine. I f many of us don't think that this is a plausible association because of the levels and so on, then we are missing looking for the association that may be the important one."
Dr. Caserta, pg. 234: "One of the things I learned at the Aluminum Conference in Puerto Rico that was tied into the metal lines in biology and medicine that I never really understood before, is the interactive effect of different metals when they are together in the same organism. It is not the same as when they are alone, and I think it would be foolish for us not to include aluminum as part of our thinking with this."
Dr. Clements, pg 247- 249: "I am really concerned that we have taken off like a boat going down one arm of the mangrove swamp at high speed, when in fact there was not enough discussion really early on about which was the boat should go at all. And I really want to risk offending everyone in the room by saying that perhaps this study should not have been done at all, because the outcome of it could have, to some extent, been predicted, and we have all reached this point now where we are left hanging, even though I hear the majority of consultants say to the Board that they are not convinced there is a causality direct link between Thimerosal and various neurological outcomes."
“I know how we handle it from here is extremely problematic. The ACIP is going to depend on comments from this group in order to move forward into policy, and I have been advised that whatever I say should not move into the policy area because that is not the point of this meeting. But nonetheless, we know from many experiences in history that the pure scientist has done research because of pure science. But that pure science has resulted in splitting the atom or some other process which is completely beyond the power of the scientists who did the research to control it. And what we have here is people who have, for every best reason in the world, pursued a direction of research. But there is not the point at which the research results have to be handled, and even if this committee decides that there is no association and that information gets out, the work that has been done and through the freedom of information that will be taken by others and will be used in ways beyond the control of this group. And I am very concerned about that as I suspect it already too late to do anything regardless of any professional body and what they say."
"My mandate as I sit here in this group is to make sure at the end of the day the 100,000,000 are immunized with DTP, Hepatitis B and if possible Hib, this year, next year and for many years to come, and that will have to be with Thimerosal containing vaccines unless a miracle occurs and an alternative is found quickly and is tried and found to be safe."
"So I leave you with the challenge that I am very concerned that this has gotten this far, and that having got this far, how you present in a concerted voice the information to the ACIP in a way they will be able to handle it and not get exposed to the traps which are out there in public relations. My message would be that any other study, and I like the study that has just been described here very much. I think it makes a lot of sense, but it has to be thought through. What are the potential outcomes and how will you handle it? How will it be presented to a public and media that is hungry for selecting the information they want to use for whatever means they in store for them?"
"…but I wonder how on earth you are going to handle it from here."
Dr. Bernier, pg. 256: "…As difficult as science is, there are two other equally tricky, complex challenges. The policy crafting has to take into consideration some very diverse and complex issues. There is another group that will deal with that, and then we have the communication and how we handle this, which I think I am no expert at, but seems equally daunting to me as the scientific and the policy issue."
"I don’t think we can set a rule here because some people have gotten these documents. For example, some of the manufacturers were privileged to receive this information. It has been important for them to share it within the company with the experts there, so they can review it. Some of you may have questions. You may have given a copy, but I think if we will all just consider this embargoed information, if I can use that term, and very highly protected information, I think that was the best I can offer.
Excerpts from:
Bob Chen, M.D., CDC’s chief of Vaccine Safety and Development, National Immunization Program
Tom Clarkson, M.D., University of Rochester, New York, Mercury program
John Clements, World Health Organization (WHO) representing expanded program on immunization
Bob Davis, M.D., University of Washington, associate professor of pediatrics and epidemiology
Bill Egan, Ph.D., FDA’s Center for Biologics, Evaluation & Research
David Johnson, M.D., Michigan state public health officer, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)
Dick Johnston, M.D., University of Colorado School of Medicine and National Jewish Center for Immunology and Respiratory Medicine, immunologist and pediatrician
Loren Koller, D.V.M., Oregon State University College of Veterinary Medicine, pathologist, immunotoxicologist
Martin Meyers, M.D., CDC’s acting director, National Immunization Program
Walter Orenstein, M.D. CDC’s director, National Immunization Program
Isabelle Rapin, M.D., Albert Einstein College of Medicine, neurologist for children
Tom Verstraeten, M.D., CDC’s National Immunization Program presently employed by Glaxo-Welcome, vaccine company
Bill Weil, M.D., retired pediatrician, representing American Academy of Pediatrics’ (AAP)

 

[dogman6126]

http://www.aapsonline.org/vaccines/cdcfdaexperts.htm

[h=3]Selected vaccine authorities from CDC, FDA, and manufacturers discuss, in a closed meeting, the possibility of neurodevelopment disorders resulting from vaccine components.[/h] Emphasis and comments in square brackets added by K.P. Stoller, M.D.
[The CDC published a study in late 2003, repudiating any possible link between thimerosal and developmental problems such as autism, but the CDC did have data supporting such a link which it secretively kept from the public.
Documents released through the Freedom of Information Act detail the transcript of a meeting held in June of 2000 between members of the CDC, the FDA, and representatives from the vaccine industry.
This top secret meeting was held to discuss a study done by Dr. Thomas Verstraeten and his co-workers using Vaccine Safety Datalink data as a project collaboration between the CDC's National Immunization Program (NIP) and four HMOs. The study examined the records of 110,000 children.
The transcript is titled “Scientific Review of Vaccine Safety Datalink Information,” June 7-8, 2000, Simpsonwood Retreat Center, Norcross, Georgia, but it was also the first official meeting of the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices which sets CDC policy) work group on thimerosal and immunization. In attendance were Walter Orenstein, Director of the National Immunization Program (NIP) at the CDC; John Modlin, Chair of the ACIP and on the faculty at Dartmouth Medical School; and 50 other distinguished members of the government (11 consultants from the CDC), academia and the pharmaceutical industry. Vaccine industry representatives were: Harry Guess, M.D., Merck, Chief of Epidemiology; Jo White, M.D., North American Vaccine, Clinical Dev. & Research; Barbara Howe, M.D., Smith, Kline-Beecham, Clinical Research Group; Mike Blum, M.D., Wyeth, Safety and Surveillance for Vaccine Development.
Although this conference is apparently concerned with the effects of mercury in the form of thimerosal on infant brain development, participants seemed to have limited knowledge about mercury. None of the well known experts were invited, such as Dr. Ascher from Bowman Grey School of Medicine or Dr. Boyd Haley, who has done extensive work on the toxic effects of low concentrations on the CNS.
The conference followed a study that showed that mercury in vaccines may have caused neurodevelopment problems.
The following are in context excerpts of this 260 page transcript:]

Dr. Orenstein pg 1-2 “(For) those who don’t know, initial concerns were raised last summer that mercury, as methylmercury (thimerosal) in vaccines, might exceed safe levels. As a result of these concerns, CDC undertook, in collaboration with investigators in the Vaccine safety Datalink, an effort to evaluate whether there were any health risks from mercury on any of these vaccines. Analysis to date raise some concerns of possible dose-response effect of increasing levels of mehylmercury in vaccines and certain neurologic diagnosis. Therefore, the purpose of this meeting is to have a careful scientific review of the data.”
Dr. Bernier pg 8 : (Associate Director for Science in the NIP) “There was a Congressional Action in 1997 requiring the FDA to review Mercury in drugs and biologics…in October of 1999 the ACIP looked this situation over again and… said the vaccines could be continued to be used.”
Dr. Johnston, pg. 14-15 & 19-20: (Chair of the meeting and a pediatrician-immunologist at the University of Colorado): “Thimerosal is cleaved (in the body) into ethylmercury and thiosalicylate which is inactive… The data on its toxicity (shows) it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death.”
“It is particularly a concern in multi-dose vials because of the issue of re-entry multiple times in the vials, and it is also important in the manufacturing process for a number of vaccine including inactivated influenza and some of the earlier DPT vaccine, and is a constituent of all DPT vaccines, but not all DTAP vaccines.”
“There are three licensed preservative in the United States, Thimerosal, ethyl and phenol. We won't talk about the other two today, but I thought I should mention them. Thimerosal is the most active and it has been utilized in vaccines since the 1930's.”
“Acutely, it can cause neurologic and renal toxicity, including death, from overdose…”
“Dr. Halsey made a very impassioned plea that we do carefully controlled studies to in fact address the issues specifically, and that such studies be conducted by neurodevelopmentalists and environmental scientists employing specific endpoints of their study…”
“We just recently had another meeting that some of you were able to attend dealing with aluminum in vaccines. I would like to just say one or two words about that before I conclude.”
“We learned at that meeting a number of important things about aluminum, and I think they also are important in our considerations today. “Aluminum salts are important in the formulating process of vaccines, both in antigen stabilization and absorption of endotoxin.”
“Aluminum and mercury are often simultaneously administered to infants, both at the same site and at different sites.”
“However, we also learned that there is absolutely no data, including animal data, about the potential for synergy, additively or antagonism, all of which can occur in binary metal mixtures that relate and allow us to draw any conclusions from the simultaneous exposure to these two salts in vaccines…”
Dr. Weil, pg. 24: “I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem.”
“The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 31: “It is sort of interesting that when I first came to the CDC as a NIS officer a year ago only, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but one of the things I knew I didn’t want to do was studies that had to do with toxicology or environmental health. Now it turns out that other people also thought that this study was not the right thing to do, so what I will present to you is the study that nobody thought we should do.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 40: “…we have found statistically significant relationships between the exposure and outcomes for these different exposures and outcomes. First, for two months of age, an unspecified developmental delay, which has its own specific ICD9 code. Exposure at three months of age, Tics. Exposure at six months of age, an attention deficit disorder. Exposure at one, three and six months of age, language and speech delays which are two separate ICD9 codes. Exposures at one, three and six months of age, the entire category of neurodevelopmental delays, which includes all of these plus a number of other disorders.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 42: “But for one thing that is for sure, there is certainly an under-ascertainment of all of these because some of the children are just not old enough to be diagnosed. So the crude incidence rates are probably much lower that what you would expect because the cohort is still very young.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 44: “Now for speech delays, which is the largest single disorder in this category of neurologic delays. The results are a suggestion of a trend with a small dip. The overall test for trend is highly statistically significant above one.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 45: "What this represents is the overall category of developmental delays, of which I have excluded speech delays because of the impression we had was some of the calculations were driven by this speech group, which was making up about half of this category. After excluding this speech group, the trend is also apparent in this group and the test for trend is also significant for this category excluding speech.”
Dr. Weil, pg. 75: “I think that what you are saying is in term of chronic exposure. I think that the alternative scenario is that this repeated acute exposures, and like many repeated acute exposures, if you consider a dose of 25 micrograms on one day, then you are above threshold. At least we think you are, and then you do that over and over to a series of neurons where the toxic effect may be the same set of neurons or the same set of neurologic processes; it is conceivable that the more mercury you get, the more effect you are going to get.”
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 76: “What I have done here, I am putting into the model instead of mercury, a number of antigens that the children received, and what do we get? Not surprisingly, we get very similar estimates as what we got for Thimerosal because every vaccine put in the equation has Thimerosal. So for speech and the other ones maybe it’s not so significant, but for the overall group it is also significant….Here we have the same thing, but instead of number of antigens, number of shots. Just the number of vaccinations given to a child, which is also for nearly all of them significantly related.”
Dr. Guess, pg. 77: "So this essentially is a 7% risk per antigen, an antigen is like in DPT you've got three antigens."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "Correct."
Dr. Egan, pg. 77: "Could you do this calculation for aluminum?"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 77: "I did it for aluminum…Actually the results were almost identical to ethylmercury because the amount of aluminum goes along almost exactly with the mercury one."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 78-79: "Then the last slide I wanted to show, there was a question of it there was any way from this data that we could estimate what would happen in the future if there is Thimerosal-free Hep B and Thimerosal-free haemophilus influenza vaccine and only DTP has Thimerosal"
"The second column would be the same scenario but now at six months. Assuming they have received two additional DPTs, so between three and six months of age they have increased their ethylmercury amounts by 50 micrograms. If I do in this current cohort with all its limitations, because there is also the Hep B that exists in the cohort*, I can't really take it out. It is significant for this one disorder which is language delay and is a combination of these two disorders, also becomes significant."
* Dr. Verstraeten could not determine which children got Hep B at birth in some cases so it was difficult to back the birth dose of Hep B out of the data.
Dr. Bernier, pg. 113: "We have asked you to keep this information confidential. We do have a plan for discussing these data at the upcoming meeting of the Advisory Committee of Immunization Practices on June 21 and June 22. At that time CDC plans to make a public release of this information*, so I think it would serve all of our interests best if we could continue to consider these data. The ACIP work group will be considering also. If we could consider these data in a certain protected environment. So we are asking people who have a great job protecting this information up until now, to continue to do that until the time of the ACIP meeting. So to basically consider this embargoed information. That would help all of us to use the machinery that we have in place for considering these data and for arriving at policy recommendations."
[*This never happened. SafeMind.org obtained this transcript via the Freedom of Information Act. Data published later were diluted into insignificance by including additional data from an HMO that had very uncharacteristic results.]
Dr. Keller, pgs. 116 & 118: "…we know the developing neurologic system is more sensitive than one that is fully developed…"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 142: "But if I can have the next slide, here instead of the proportional hazard model, we did a logistic regression model. I didn't use person time here and it's a bit tough to define exactly the control group. However, if I do it for all ages and not looking at different years, and this is for speech, the outcome is almost identical to the proportional hazard model, which suggests to me that it is not a question of bringing the diagnosis forward, but it is really the overall number that drives this estimate."
Dr. Rapin, pg. 143: "I would like to make a comment. We have been focusing on all these acquired causes including mercury and prematurity, and you had a list of confounding variables that should be considered in future studies. What we know today about all of the developmental disorders is that environmental factors are in fact rather unimportant in the case of these deficits and the major cause is genetic…I find it a little difficult knowing this and putting in autism. The major cause is not environmental, it is genetic and that we are focusing just on these environment events or adventitious events when we haven't considered, and you told us that you don't have data for example on siblings, your study does not lend itself to considering the major variable."
Dr. Johnson, pg 144: "Well, I think the assumption is that those genetic predispositions would be randomly distributed."
Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: "But you don't know that."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 144: "No, that's an interesting assumption."
Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: "I understand that, but you don't know that."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 144: "just on principle, Dr. Rapin, it seems to me that the more we learn about genetics or the more we learn about let's say autism, the more we shift towards focusing on genetic causes, but would you rule out the possibility, and let's move away from autism, that some of these are genetic predisposition and then the second hit?"
Dr. Rapin, pg. 144: "Not at all. I think that it is in fact an attractive hypothesis."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 145: "Right, thank you."
Dr. Chen, pg. 151: "One of the reasons that led me personally to not be so quick to dismiss the findings was that on his own Tom independently picked three different outcomes that he did not think could be associated with mercury and three out of three had a different pattern across different exposure levels as compared to the ones that again on a priority basis we picked as biologically plausible to be due to mercury exposure."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: "Wasn't it true that if you looked at the population that had 25 micrograms you had a certain risk and when you got to 75 micrograms you had a higher risk."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: "Yes, absolutely, but these are all at the same time. Measured at the same age at least."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: I understand that, but they are different exposures."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: "Yes."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: "What is your explanation? What explanations would you give for that?"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 161: "Personally, I have three hypotheses. My first hypothesis is it is parental bias. The children that are more likely to be vaccinated are more likely to be picked and diagnosed. Second hypothesis, I don't know. There is a bias that I have not recognized, and nobody has yet told me about it. Third hypothesis. It's true, it's Thimerosal. Those are my hypotheses."
Dr. Brent, pg. 161: "If it's true, which or what mechanisms would you explain the finding with?"
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 162: "You are asking for biological plausibility?"
Dr. Brent, pg. 162: "Well, yes."
Dr. Verstraeten, pg. 162: "When I saw this, and I went back through the literature, I was actually stunned by what I saw because I thought it is plausible. First of all there is the Faeroe study, which I think people have dismissed too easily, and there is a new article in the same Journal that was presented here, the Journal of Pediatrics, where they have looked at PCB. They have looked at other contaminants in seafood and they have adjusted for that, and still mercury comes out. That is one point. Another point is that in many of the studies with animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals, it turned out that there is quite a different result depending on the dose of mercury. Depending on the route of exposure and depending on the age at which the animals were exposed. Now, I don't know how much you can extrapolate that from animals to humans, but that tells me mercury at one month of age is not the same as mercury at three months, at 12 months, prenatal mercury, later mercury. There is a whole range of plausible outcomes from mercury. On top of that, I think that we cannot so easily compare the U.S. population to Faeroe or Seychelles populations. We have different mean levels of exposure. We are comparing high to high in the Seychelles, high to high in the Faeroe and low to low in the U.S., so I am not sure how easily you can transpose one finding to another one. So basically to me that leaves all the options open, and that means I can not exclude such a possible effect."
Dr. Orenstein, pg. 184: "Well, the second issue is we don't know causality. We don't know about causality, but is this something that really warrants some urgent attention?"
Dr. Clover, pg. 187: "…no one around here is going to say that mercury per say is not a concern."
Dr. Weil, pg. 187 & 188: "Although the data presents a number of uncertainties, there is adequate consistency, biological plausibility, a lack of relationship with phenomenon not expected to be related, and a potential causal role that is as good as any other hypothesized etiology of explanation of the noted associations. In addition, the possibility that the associations could be causal has major significance for public and professional acceptance of Thimerosal containing vaccines. I think that is a critical issue. Finally, lack of further study would be horrendous grist for the anti-vaccination bill. That's why we need to go on, and urgently I would add.*
Dr. Brent, pg. 188-191: "I am impressed with the fact that some people here have information and believe that like the incidence of learning difficulties, behavior disorders and attention deficit is increasing in our population. I don't know whether it is or it isn't, but that kind of information you just can't throw around and say it's true or isn't true without data. And it is such an important area in our society. I mean it is the thing that makes a human being different from the other species, so it is such an important area of research…"
"…(thimerosal) Causing learning disabilities and behavioral disorders. ADD is a tremendous problem in our society and I think it is one that we should be very concerned about."
"Finally, the thing that concerns me the most, those who know me, I have been a pin stick in the litigation community because of the nonsense of our litigious society. This will be a resource to our very busy plaintiff attorneys in this country when this information becomes available. They want business and this could potentially be a lot of business."
Dr. Koller, pg. 192: "…As you increase the vaccination, you increase effects, but you don't know. You have modified live viruses. You have different antigens. There is a lot of things in those vaccinations other than mercury, and we don't know whether this is a vaccination effect or a mercury effect. But I am almost sure it is not a mercury effect. Positive as a matter of fact, and there are several experts particularly that have reviewed this, the methylmercury aspect who would agree with that due to dose response."
Dr. Johnson, pg. 193: "Are you really comfortable with the way the neurologic function was tested in the Seychelles?"
Dr. Koller, pg. 193: "I have to admit that there were many other tests that could have been conducted…We are talking about very subjective, very sensitive assays and yes, there could have been others done and there should be more done…"
Dr. Johnson, pg. 198: "This association leads me to favor a recommendation that infants up to two years old not be immunized with Thimerosal containing vaccines if suitable alternative preparations are available.”
“My gut feeling? It worries me enough. Forgive this personal comment, but I got called out at eight o'clock for an emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son by C-section. Our first male in the line of the next generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the meantime, and I know there are probably implications for this internationally, but in the meantime I think I want that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines."
Dr. Bernier, pg 198: "the negative findings need to be pinned down and published."
Dr. Weil, pg. 207: "The number of dose related relationships are linear and statistically significant. You can play with this all you want. They are linear. They are statistically significant. The positive relationships are those that one might expect from the Faroe Islands studies. They are also related to those data we do have on experimental animal data and similar to the neurodevelopmental tox data on other substances, so that I think you can't accept that this is out of the ordinary. It isn't out of the ordinary."
Dr. Weil, pg. 208: "The rise in the frequency of neurobehavioral disorders whether it is ascertainment or real, is not too bad. It is much too graphic. We don't see that kind of genetic change in 30 years."
Dr. Brent, pg. 229: "The medical/legal findings in this study, causal or not, are horrendous and therefore, it is important that the suggested epidemiological, pharmacokinetic, and animal studies be performed. If an allegation was made that a child's neurobehavioral findings were caused by Thimerosal containing vaccines, you could readily find junk scientist who would support the claim with "a reasonable degree of certainty". But you will not find a scientist with any integrity who would say the reverse with the data that is available. And that is true. So we are in a bad position from the standpoint of defending any lawsuits if they were initiated and I am concerned."
Dr. Meyers, pg. 231: "Can I go back to the core issue about the research? My own concern, and a couple of you said it, there is an association between vaccines and outcome that worries both parents and pediatricians. We don’t really know what that outcome is, but it is one that worries us and there is an association with vaccines. We keep jumping back to Thimerosal, but a number of us are concerned that Thimerosal may be less likely than some of the potential associations that have been made. Some of the potential associations are number of injections, number of antigens, other additives. We mentioned aluminum and I mentioned yesterday aluminum and mercury. Antipyretics and analgesics are better utilized when vaccines are given. And then every body mentioned all of the ones that we can't think about in this quick time period that are a part of this association, and yet all of the questions I hear we are asking have to do with Thimerosal. My concern is we need to ask the questions about the other potential associations, because we are going to the Thimerosal-free vaccine. I f many of us don't think that this is a plausible association because of the levels and so on, then we are missing looking for the association that may be the important one."
Dr. Caserta, pg. 234: "One of the things I learned at the Aluminum Conference in Puerto Rico that was tied into the metal lines in biology and medicine that I never really understood before, is the interactive effect of different metals when they are together in the same organism. It is not the same as when they are alone, and I think it would be foolish for us not to include aluminum as part of our thinking with this."
Dr. Clements, pg 247- 249: "I am really concerned that we have taken off like a boat going down one arm of the mangrove swamp at high speed, when in fact there was not enough discussion really early on about which was the boat should go at all. And I really want to risk offending everyone in the room by saying that perhaps this study should not have been done at all, because the outcome of it could have, to some extent, been predicted, and we have all reached this point now where we are left hanging, even though I hear the majority of consultants say to the Board that they are not convinced there is a causality direct link between Thimerosal and various neurological outcomes."
“I know how we handle it from here is extremely problematic. The ACIP is going to depend on comments from this group in order to move forward into policy, and I have been advised that whatever I say should not move into the policy area because that is not the point of this meeting. But nonetheless, we know from many experiences in history that the pure scientist has done research because of pure science. But that pure science has resulted in splitting the atom or some other process which is completely beyond the power of the scientists who did the research to control it. And what we have here is people who have, for every best reason in the world, pursued a direction of research. But there is not the point at which the research results have to be handled, and even if this committee decides that there is no association and that information gets out, the work that has been done and through the freedom of information that will be taken by others and will be used in ways beyond the control of this group. And I am very concerned about that as I suspect it already too late to do anything regardless of any professional body and what they say."
"My mandate as I sit here in this group is to make sure at the end of the day the 100,000,000 are immunized with DTP, Hepatitis B and if possible Hib, this year, next year and for many years to come, and that will have to be with Thimerosal containing vaccines unless a miracle occurs and an alternative is found quickly and is tried and found to be safe."
"So I leave you with the challenge that I am very concerned that this has gotten this far, and that having got this far, how you present in a concerted voice the information to the ACIP in a way they will be able to handle it and not get exposed to the traps which are out there in public relations. My message would be that any other study, and I like the study that has just been described here very much. I think it makes a lot of sense, but it has to be thought through. What are the potential outcomes and how will you handle it? How will it be presented to a public and media that is hungry for selecting the information they want to use for whatever means they in store for them?"
"…but I wonder how on earth you are going to handle it from here."
Dr. Bernier, pg. 256: "…As difficult as science is, there are two other equally tricky, complex challenges. The policy crafting has to take into consideration some very diverse and complex issues. There is another group that will deal with that, and then we have the communication and how we handle this, which I think I am no expert at, but seems equally daunting to me as the scientific and the policy issue."
"I don’t think we can set a rule here because some people have gotten these documents. For example, some of the manufacturers were privileged to receive this information. It has been important for them to share it within the company with the experts there, so they can review it. Some of you may have questions. You may have given a copy, but I think if we will all just consider this embargoed information, if I can use that term, and very highly protected information, I think that was the best I can offer.
Excerpts from:
Bob Chen, M.D., CDC’s chief of Vaccine Safety and Development, National Immunization Program
Tom Clarkson, M.D., University of Rochester, New York, Mercury program
John Clements, World Health Organization (WHO) representing expanded program on immunization
Bob Davis, M.D., University of Washington, associate professor of pediatrics and epidemiology
Bill Egan, Ph.D., FDA’s Center for Biologics, Evaluation & Research
David Johnson, M.D., Michigan state public health officer, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)
Dick Johnston, M.D., University of Colorado School of Medicine and National Jewish Center for Immunology and Respiratory Medicine, immunologist and pediatrician
Loren Koller, D.V.M., Oregon State University College of Veterinary Medicine, pathologist, immunotoxicologist
Martin Meyers, M.D., CDC’s acting director, National Immunization Program
Walter Orenstein, M.D. CDC’s director, National Immunization Program
Isabelle Rapin, M.D., Albert Einstein College of Medicine, neurologist for children
Tom Verstraeten, M.D., CDC’s National Immunization Program presently employed by Glaxo-Welcome, vaccine company
Bill Weil, M.D., retired pediatrician, representing American Academy of Pediatrics’ (AAP)

You like to post articles and what not without posting your own analysis of the content. If anything that shows your own inability or lack of interest in actually understanding the content.

If you read through this, they are discussing the danger of thermisol in vaccines in children between 1 month and 12 months of age. They talk about how the effects are worse at greater concentrations of mercury, at same site injections, when the child is younger, and they also address a bit on genetic predispositions. There general conclusion is that yes, with to much mercury you will be at risk. Also they concluded that more study is need to better define what that risk is.
There studies were concerned with 25 micrograms of mercury in test subjects (non-human) and they also discussed how there estimates were high in the extrapolation of the data to human subjects (no tests were done directly). They also talked about how they are not confident with some of the ways that neurological effects were tested in the animal groups.
They talked a bit about how it might not be thermisol that is the problem, in fact one of the doctors seemed to say they doubt the thermisol is the problem. They talked a bit about the possibility of the number of antigens for example. However, their general tone is that there is more study needed.
They talked a lot about how there is a potential of danger based on what studies they have, however they still need to prove causality.

I was interested to read how there is also a new thermisol free influenza vaccine being made available. I double checked this on another source. If anything, this proves that they are working to make the vaccines safer.

All in all, the threat is to very young children receiving multiple injections containing thermisol over a short period of time creating a buildup to intensify the effects of ethylmercury. However, the only vaccine infants get that has thermisol in it is influenza and that is being removed itself. The threat is marginal at worst and more likely non existant at older ages because of several reasons.
If anything, your post supported the safety of vaccines and just went to show how we only partially understand the case of thermisol effects in small children (where to draw the line, etc.). We don't even know for sure it is dangerous. The point is, we don't know for sure. More studies are needed.

 

[PeachJam]

Dr. Orenstein pg 1-2 “(For) those who don’t know, initial concerns were raised last summer that mercury, as methylmercury (thimerosal) in vaccines, might exceed safe levels.

Thimerosal is ethyl mercury, not methyl mercury. I have a hard time believing anyone that would get that basic point wrong is an "expert".

They behave much differently in mammals, and have completely different toxicities.

You can make almost any compound sound terrifying by presenting it in a certain way: http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

There is a decent review paper comparing the toxicity of methyl mercury and ethyl mercury:
Dorea, JG, Farina, M, Rocha, JB. 2013. Toxicity of ethylmercury (and Thimerosal): a comparison with methylmercury. Journal of Applied Toxicity 33(8): 700-711.

 

[muir]

Thimerosal is ethyl mercury, not methyl mercury. I have a hard time believing anyone that would get that basic point wrong is an "expert".

They behave much differently in mammals, and have completely different toxicities.

You can make almost any compound sound terrifying by presenting it in a certain way: http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

There is a decent review paper comparing the toxicity of methyl mercury and ethyl mercury:
Dorea, JG, Farina, M, Rocha, JB. 2013. Toxicity of ethylmercury (and Thimerosal): a comparison with methylmercury. Journal of Applied Toxicity 33(8): 700-711.

If you had read further into the article you would have found them talking about ethyl mercury

For all you and i know that particular reference you have mentioned might be a typo made in the transcription from conversation recording into text form

Here's a study by the people you mention:
[h=1]Toxicity of ethylmercury (and Thimerosal): a comparison with methylmercury.[/h]Dórea JG[SUP]1[/SUP], Farina M, Rocha JB.

[h=3]Abstract[/h]Ethylmercury (etHg) is derived from the metabolism of thimerosal (o-carboxyphenyl-thio-ethyl-sodium salt), which is the most widely used form of organic mercury. Because of its application as a vaccine preservative, almost every human and animal (domestic and farmed) that has been immunized with thimerosal-containing vaccines has been exposed to etHg. Although methylmercury (meHg) is considered a hazardous substance that is to be avoided even at small levels when consumed in foods such as seafood and rice (in Asia), the World Health Organization considers small doses of thimerosal safe regardless of multiple/repetitive exposures to vaccines that are predominantly taken during pregnancy or infancy. We have reviewed in vitro and in vivo studies that compare the toxicological parameters among etHg and other forms of mercury (predominantly meHg) to assess their relative toxicities and potential to cause cumulative insults. In vitro studies comparing etHg with meHg demonstrate equivalent measured outcomes for cardiovascular, neural and immune cells. However, under in vivo conditions, evidence indicates a distinct toxicokinetic profile between meHg and etHg, favoring a shorter blood half-life, attendant compartment distribution and the elimination of etHg compared with meHg. EtHg's toxicity profile is different from that of meHg, leading to different exposure and toxicity risks. Therefore, in real-life scenarios, a simultaneous exposure to both etHg and meHg might result in enhanced neurotoxic effects in developing mammals. However, our knowledge on this subject is still incomplete, and studies are required to address the predictability of the additive or synergic toxicological effects of etHg and meHg (or other neurotoxicants).

 

[muir]

You like to post articles and what not without posting your own analysis of the content. If anything that shows your own inability or lack of interest in actually understanding the content.

If you read through this, they are discussing the danger of thermisol in vaccines in children between 1 month and 12 months of age. They talk about how the effects are worse at greater concentrations of mercury, at same site injections, when the child is younger, and they also address a bit on genetic predispositions. There general conclusion is that yes, with to much mercury you will be at risk. Also they concluded that more study is need to better define what that risk is.
There studies were concerned with 25 micrograms of mercury in test subjects (non-human) and they also discussed how there estimates were high in the extrapolation of the data to human subjects (no tests were done directly). They also talked about how they are not confident with some of the ways that neurological effects were tested in the animal groups.
They talked a bit about how it might not be thermisol that is the problem, in fact one of the doctors seemed to say they doubt the thermisol is the problem. They talked a bit about the possibility of the number of antigens for example. However, their general tone is that there is more study needed.
They talked a lot about how there is a potential of danger based on what studies they have, however they still need to prove causality.

I was interested to read how there is also a new thermisol free influenza vaccine being made available. I double checked this on another source. If anything, this proves that they are working to make the vaccines safer.

All in all, the threat is to very young children receiving multiple injections containing thermisol over a short period of time creating a buildup to intensify the effects of ethylmercury. However, the only vaccine infants get that has thermisol in it is influenza and that is being removed itself. The threat is marginal at worst and more likely non existant at older ages because of several reasons.
If anything, your post supported the safety of vaccines and just went to show how we only partially understand the case of thermisol effects in small children (where to draw the line, etc.). We don't even know for sure it is dangerous. The point is, we don't know for sure. More studies are needed.

So you agree with me then that vaccines should not be made manditory until further independant testing has been carried out?

Great...i'm glad you saw reason in the end

Don't forget the aluminium they mention though when you feel tempted to dismiss health concerns after the removal of thimerosol