Youth Going Through Gender Transition Are More At Risk Of Psychiatric Issues

[aeon]

The first nonconsensual act a newborn child experiences is the assignment of gender.

For many, the next nonconsensual act is the mutilation of their genitalia.

From my perspective, arguing the ethics of gender is already predicated on an unethical foundation.

Sometimes the change is undoing a wrong from the time of their birth.

Of course, children are regarded as property under the law, so it is what it is.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[-]

The thing about this topic is, it seems silly to me to even debate it. People keep bringing up religion, science, god, gametes. Doesn't matter. You're thinking about this too deeply

If someone tells you they're something, that is what they are. Who are you to have the ego to tell them otherwise, as if you know that person better than they know themselves?

Would you tell someone who's gay that they're straight? Would you tell a Spaniard that they're Russian? No, you would not

Love and embrace people instead of attacking their identity and move on with your life. Focus on the real issues

 

[-]

This thread is an ad hominem dumpster fire btw. The bizarre and unhinged accusations and personal attacks were fascinating to observe

 

[Misty]

The thing about this topic is, it seems silly to me to even debate it. People keep bringing up religion, science, god, gametes. Doesn't matter. You're thinking about this too deeply

If someone tells you they're something, that is what they are. Who are you to have the ego to tell them otherwise, as if you know that person better than they know themselves?

Would you tell someone who's gay that they're straight? Would you tell a Spaniard that they're Russian? No, you would not

Love and embrace people instead of attacking their identity and move on with your life. Focus on the real issues

What if the obvious Spaniard says they're a Russian? That's OK then, right?

 

[aeon]

What if the obvious Spaniard says they're a Russian? That's OK then, right?

Of course not. There’s a marked difference between self-expression, and the usage of labels applied from the external, such as nationality.

One is inherent, the other externally-applied.

Which is also the basis of errors of gender. Instead of it being expression of an inherent truth, it is born of external application without consent—an ethical trespass and violation of the right to self-determination.

Consider too, if you argue that angle, what you set yourself up for.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Misty]

Of course not. There’s a marked difference between self-expression, and the usage of labels applied from the external, such as nationality.

One is inherent, the other externally-applied.

Which is also the basis of errors of gender. Instead of it being expression of an inherent truth, it is born of external application without consent—an ethical trespass and violation of the right to self-determination.

Consider too, if you argue that angle, what you set yourself up for.

Cheers,
Ian

Having self expression is fine, good even. Even if this expression comes out, in example, as a girl being a tomboy in all ways. But for a person with a penis and male chromosomes to say I am female is gender dysphoria. To say I am female - is for him not realistic. He is male by genetics, biology, and all the other wonderful things that make him a man.

There's perfectly good logic to this angle. Otherwise I can say that I am Vladimir Putin, or a 6 year old African American boy, no? Or an elephant. And if you refuse to join me in my hallucinations, delusions, or dysphoria - then you are being egotistical and a bigot, right?

See how it sounds?

If a person says they are gay or whatever they say, fine, that is between them and God, no problem. The problem starts when someone is asking me to call them something they are not. Call yourself the Queen of England if you like. Just don't demand others to play along and call them names when they choose reality and truth. That's all I'm saying, Ian.

 

[-]

What if the obvious Spaniard says they're a Russian? That's OK then, right?

This all goes back to your complete dismissal of everything aside from your accepted genders. You don't accept that someone could be a different gender than what they were assigned at birth, so you take that, apply it to them, reject their identity. Gender comes from within. They know who they are. You do not. You're just some random stranger

You mentioned in my blog that you knowingly and intentionally misgender people because to you it's "sin" and you don't want to participate in sin and stubbornly insist on your beliefs. Which is one of the most selfish things I could imagine. Behavior like yours is exactly what causes the suicide and mental health issues you claim to be concerned about

Also, did anyone here even try googling *why* some might be more suicidal after transitioning? Or did you just read an article and then not think more deeply beyond that? Because the answer is pretty obvious. It is due to those fighting these very things and rejecting their identity. The transition is not the problem. Society is. Your opposition. If you truly want to ensure the welfare of the transgender community - support them

Misgendering causes significant, often cumulative, psychological and social harm, including elevated anxiety, depression, increased suicidality, and reduced self-worth. It invalidates a person's identity, triggers dysphoria, and creates unsafe environments, often acting as a form of harassment or social exclusion.

Specific Harms of Misgendering:

Mental Health Decline: Triggers stress, emotional distress, and negative emotional responses.

Safety and Environment: Creates feelings of being unsafe, unwelcome, or ignored.

Social and Emotional Impact: Causes alienation, isolation, and diminished trust in relationships.

Internalized Negativity: Fuels low self-esteem, hypervigilance, and in some cases, can aggravate body dissatisfaction or spark eating disorders.

Health Outcomes: Discourages transgender people from seeking medical care, leading to disparities.

Usage Examples and Contexts:

Intentional vs. Unintentional: While often unintentional, constant misgendering is often used as a tool to disrespect, invalidate, or act with hostility towards someone's identity.

Professional/Daily Life: Misgendering occurs in person, via email, or over the phone, and can be used to marginalize individuals in workplaces or public spaces.

Deadnaming: Using a transgender person's former name (deadnaming) is a form of, and frequently accompanies, misgendering.

Synonyms and Related Terms:

- Invalidation / Denial of identity

- Disrespecting social identity

- Hostile behavior

- Alienation / Marginalization

- Misidentification

When these instances happen repeatedly, they reinforce a culture of stigma against transgender and non-binary individuals.

 

[aeon]

Having self expression is fine, good even. Even if this expression comes out, in example, as a girl being a tomboy in all ways. But for a person with a penis and male chromosomes to say I am female is gender dysphoria. To say I am female - is for him not realistic. He is male by genetics, biology, and all the other wonderful things that make him a man.

Entirely correct, but that’s not what is being discussed. You have muddled sex and gender. No one is saying a person who is male is female. Either you do not understand the premise, or you are arguing something no one was concerned about, or you are arguing in bad faith.

If a person says they are gay or whatever they say, fine, that is between them and God, no problem. The problem starts when someone is asking me to call them something they are not. Call yourself the Queen of England if you like. Just don't demand others to play along and call them names when they choose reality and truth. That's all I'm saying, Ian.

And therein lies your problem. You are deciding for someone else what they are, or not, without their consent. That indeed makes you a bigot.

No one is saying one sex is another sex. Of course that is not true.

People do assert, and rightfully so, that they have a gender, or not. That is not sex.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[John K]

And therein lies your problem. You are deciding for someone else what they are, or not, without their consent. That indeed makes you a bigot.

No one is saying one sex is another sex. Of course that is not true.

People do assert, and rightfully so, that they have a gender, or not. That is not sex.

A problem I see with this is that humans are social creatures and the assertion of gender is as much a social statement as a private one, with consequences and implications for how we each behave with each other in public situations. This means that it’s not fully effective unless the assertion is socially accepted.

It seems to me that it is the right of everyone to determine for themselves what their gender is, but because it is a social statement it is also the right of others to accept or reject such an assertion based on their own understanding and beliefs. The tensions in such situations are not usually resolved through rational persuasion but through acclimatisation, political conflict and slow changes in heart.

I think that tolerance and love in both directions is a good way forward, an agreement to differ, and some sensible discretion on both sides of the debate in public situations where an unpleasant situation might develop.

 

[TomasM]

You all are not going to convince one another of your own individual truths. If we put all of this to the side and really cut it all back to the foundational problem we can find why this is a hard impasse.

Women feel that their freedoms and safety are under attack, parents feel that their daughters aren't safe, and anyone that is not transgender feels they have to curb their free speech just because one person can walk up to them and demand it.

If the transgender community wants to change the world around them, they are going to have to do it by winning hearts rather than making demands. Nobody is going to give up their freedoms and safety simply because someone else demands it.

The core nature of femininity is to take in to one self. We can trace this back to the hunters and gathers, where men would go out and hunt with aggression and fight other tribes so they could survive. The men would bring back the spoils and the women would take (receive it in) and make the food, build up their home, and nourish their children (taking the child into their breast). This can even be said of sex where the woman takes the man into herself.

I think the biggest divide here is that gender is tied to being a binary male and female by a very large majority of the world population. Masculinity and femininity is tied to identity and we all know that this CAN be very fluid but that it is also different than hardwired biology.

When we think about all of these things collectively we come to some very hard truths. One, the vast majority is not going to roll over and give up their safety and freedom. Two, soft femininity by taking in rather than aggression and demands will be required for acceptance - without it the heels will remain firmly planted in the ground. Three, the rule of law is deep on the side of gender being binary because there are so many precedents that will completely break societal structure if these are altered.

Finally, this must be recognized as being part of the culture war that has been brewing for many years. The transgender community is simply one part of that war and it is being used by people of power who don't care about their welfare and are using them as a pawn to achieve their own objectives. Division is the objective and breaking society is the goal.

 

[Wyote]

Thanks for the clarity at basically every level @TomasM

 

[-]

If honoring someone's pronouns is such a struggle for someone, they must not have experienced much hardship in life. It's the easiest thing in the world to do. You act as if they're asking you to sell them your unborn child or burn a village to the ground, when all it is, is respecting their identity.

You can choose to be respectful, or you can choose to cause someone harm. You can also choose to ignore the violence, the murder, the bloodshed, the beatings committed against this group while contributing to their distress. As if they don't have enough pain already. That choice is up to you.

Everyone has a right to their beliefs, but opposing those beliefs when they lead to suffering is the ethical thing to do. So... because Hitler believed Jewish people should be eradicated, we must support those beliefs, because everyone "has a right to" believe what they want? I do not think so. This is not a matter of beliefs, it is a matter of preserving and promoting human rights and dignity.

"Research indicates that using a transgender person’s chosen pronouns is more than politeness; it is a critical, life-saving act of affirmation. Transgender and nonbinary youth whose pronouns are respected by all or most of the people in their lives report suicide attempt rates at nearly half the rate of those who do not."

 

[Misty]

You all are not going to convince one another of your own individual truths. If we put all of this to the side and really cut it all back to the foundational problem we can find why this is a hard impasse.

Women feel that their freedoms and safety are under attack, parents feel that their daughters aren't safe, and anyone that is not transgender feels they have to curb their free speech just because one person can walk up to them and demand it.

If the transgender community wants to change the world around them, they are going to have to do it by winning hearts rather than making demands. Nobody is going to give up their freedoms and safety simply because someone else demands it.

The core nature of femininity is to take in to one self. We can trace this back to the hunters and gathers, where men would go out and hunt with aggression and fight other tribes so they could survive. The men would bring back the spoils and the women would take (receive it in) and make the food, build up their home, and nourish their children (taking the child into their breast). This can even be said of sex where the woman takes the man into herself.

I think the biggest divide here is that gender is tied to being a binary male and female by a very large majority of the world population. Masculinity and femininity is tied to identity and we all know that this CAN be very fluid but that it is also different than hardwired biology.

When we think about all of these things collectively we come to some very hard truths. One, the vast majority is not going to roll over and give up their safety and freedom. Two, soft femininity by taking in rather than aggression and demands will be required for acceptance - without it the heels will remain firmly planted in the ground. Three, the rule of law is deep on the side of gender being binary because there are so many precedents that will completely break societal structure if these are altered.

Finally, this must be recognized as being part of the culture war that has been brewing for many years. The transgender community is simply one part of that war and it is being used by people of power who don't care about their welfare and are using them as a pawn to achieve their own objectives. Division is the objective and breaking society is the goal.

Again - perfectly said. Similarly to John K's earlier anectdote of the little girls in the locker room who felt in danger by having a grown man naked with them, and worse, while they are also naked and undressing is a scenario unthinkable ten or 15 years ago. As a woman who has been exposed to more unwanted male genitals - exposed to me beginning at the age of 11 and onwards.. I can vouch for the terror it instills in that moment.

This is a core reason I think being forced to adhere and agree with other people's dysphoria is likened to playing along with a person in a full blown psychotic episode who swears we're under alien attack and must therefore leap off the building to escape.

As a Christian my soul and doing right by God, being IN the world but not OF the world, as commanded is more important to me than someone else thinking me a prejudiced bigot. It was foretold that the world would become more and more perverse, more and more self centered more and more morally corrupt, and it absolutely has.

As a mother I don't want stories of transgender ideology read to kindergarteners in school, nor schools teaching my children fallacies. Schools are for learning, not for indoctrination. Leave these topics of morality for the parents. I don't want my daughters to feel scared in a restroom alone with a genetic man, or undressing in a swim class locker room being forced to see a grown man's penis.. Even if the person in question is the sweetest transgender person on Earth, who wouldn't harm a fly, this is still a little child being forced to see a grown man's genitals and have her body seen by a grown man. This is wrong, period.

This is what pisses us "Christian bigots" off the most - these scenarios. And it is indeed a safety issue. Under these rules any man, any rapists or murderer with dark intentions can simply Don women's clothing - claim to be a trans woman and enter such private "female" only spaces and then we will all be sorry.

There are loads of these stories already emerging. I can post some here, if you like.

It's a sick immoral world when a grown man's feelings about his gender are more important than a child's sense of safety. Or a woman's, for that matter.

Bigots hate. I do not have any hate for people with gender dysphoria, I actually find it pretty sad. But this doesn't give them the right to force me to adhere to their delusions at the cost of my soul - nor as Thomas and John described, of my sense of safety. Agreed.

 

[Misty]

If honoring someone's pronouns is such a struggle for someone, they must not have experienced much hardship in life. It's the easiest thing in the world to do. You act as if they're asking you to sell them your unborn child or burn a village to the ground, when all it is, is respecting their identity.

You can choose to be respectful, or you can choose to cause someone harm. You can also choose to ignore the violence, the murder, the bloodshed, the beatings committed against this group while contributing to their distress. As if they don't have enough pain already. That choice is up to you.

Everyone has a right to their beliefs, but opposing those beliefs when they lead to suffering is the ethical thing to do. So... because Hitler believed Jewish people should be eradicated, we must support those beliefs, because everyone "has a right to" believe what they want? I do not think so. This is not a matter of beliefs, it is a matter of preserving and promoting human rights and dignity.

"Research indicates that using a transgender person’s chosen pronouns is more than politeness; it is a critical, life-saving act of affirmation. Transgender and nonbinary youth whose pronouns are respected by all or most of the people in their lives report suicide attempt rates at nearly half the rate of those who do not."

Gender is not your whole identity. And you are asking much much more than that as many more social settings are affected by the acceptance of such. As an atheist you do not understand the biblical ramifications of a Christian playing along with your pronouns, clearly.

Sure the times change, culture and societal norms, mores, and such evolve. But God says to His believers this:

Hebrews 13:8
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

He didn't suddenly change his mind on what is a man and what is a woman.

 

[Akar]

Finally, this must be recognized as being part of the culture war that has been brewing for many years. The transgender community is simply one part of that war and it is being used by people of power who don't care about their welfare and are using them as a pawn to achieve their own objectives. Division is the objective and breaking society is the goal.

Dividi et Impera.
Am I the only one that sees this exact scenario even in this thread ?

-Giammarco

 

[Wyote]

Dividi et Impera.
Am I the only one that sees this exact scenario even in this thread ?

-Giammarco

Was literally about to make the same comment rofl

 

[-]

As an atheist you do not understand the biblical ramifications of a Christian playing along with your pronouns, clearly.

I was raised in a strict Roman Catholic household and grew up in the church, surrounded by Catholicism. I knew no atheists. It wasn't only my family, it was all of our family friends too. I think I understand the perspective of a Christian quite well, considering this was the foundation of my upbringing and I regularly attended mass, went to bible study, attended catechism classes, etc. In my bedroom I had floor-to-ceiling bookshelves filled with Christian texts (I always loved the apocryphal writings). I have not always been an atheist and used to recite prayers every night, wishing for the well-being of my loved ones. I was not born an atheist. I was Catholic, and no longer am.

I could recite the prayer to St. Michael the Archangel from memory for you. It was my favorite, something about it always resonated with me.

 

[Faye]

 

[aeon]

Some people go about their way.

Some neither respect nor honor boundaries, spend part of their gift of life judging other people, and go full victim mentality if you call them out.

That’s Why We Can’t Have Nice Things,
Ian