Why don't women make the first move?

[muir]

Oh my God. I haven't seen a thread devolve into pettiness like this in a long time! How exciting! There's name calling, there's a lack of taking responsibility, lack of clarity, opinions formulated without examples or basis, assumptions and cultural ignorance and confusion, sexism, feminism, calling out members and assuming their intentions just by posting, etc.

It's got it all....humanity in technicolour!

 

[SpecialEdition]

Why do you think this?

Well. Here's the thing... You and I have both been on this forum for a LONG time, so I think we can both recognize when personal attacks are being made. I think we can also recognize when personal issues start to stick. I find it annoying as fuck when these things start to crop up and then it starts bleeding into other areas of a forum.

I don't care about conflict if it stays in one place, but how many times have we seen the exact same arguments against the same people happen over and over and over again?

That is my PRIMARY motivation for wanting things to get back on track. This thread had the opportunity to really produce some quality content and now it's just garbage.

 

[SpecialEdition]

It's got it all....humanity in technicolour!

BURN IT

 

[Profoundhappiness]

I think smart women are sexy...but i think in this struggle to fight for something we stir up the warrior spirit and it is always destructive...or as the old chinese proverb says: ''when you set out for revenge, first dig two graves''

When we take that step to fight and...to use some overtly 'masculine' symbology...when we draw the sword and take on a combatative posture we drive out the other side of our nature...lets call that the more 'feminine' side of our nature which is compassion; it also becomes difficult to sheath that sword again once the warrior aspect has been adopted...it possesses us

My concern about feminism is that it stirs up that kind of militancy in women...the warrior spirit...and the warrior spirit is very binary (as thedaringhatrick put it) in its thinking

The warrior spirit thinks in simple terms of freind or foe and that the foe must be crushed

Feminism has placed men in this role of foe and the warrior spirit does not seek parity...the warrior spirit seeks to conquer

It's a mindset and i think feminism is instilling that antagonistic mindset in a lot of women (and some men too)

So for example i responded to your previous post by trying to balance out what you were saying and by saying that in fact you DO need men as a whole even if you don't feel you 'need' them in your personal life because the reality is it was men who built that roof over your head, the computer you are typing on and who produced the food in your fridge and cupboards and equally those men wouldn't have existed if it weren't for women

You see?

men and women are completely interdependent

In the struggle to reach parity in opportunities, decision making etc etc i think its important for women not to wage war on men because if you do that you really wage war on women as well due to the interdependance of the sexes

Feminism is destructive because it tells you to wage war on 'patriarchy' which is basically energetic shorthand for 'men'

This is why i think people should say they believe in 'equality' rather than feminism

For example many men are not going to identify with feminism because of all the associative baggage and if we are missing one of the genders from a movement then we are not striving for equality

As an exercise to help with empathy on this issue imagine if the situation was reversed and men were militantly asserting themselves under a banner of 'manism' and they were waging war on something called 'matriarchy' and they were asking you to rally under that banner as well and saying that equality was the intellectual preserve of manism how would you feel about that?

Would you feel a bit like....''hold on why are we calling it 'manism' if its about equality?'' Woudl you feel a bit targetted by association if manism was waging war on something they were calling 'matriarchy'?

You see?

It's time to let go of the feminist militancy and create a truely equal movement...and that would be an 'equality' movement not a manism or feminism movement

The question is how many women can see past their militant feminist warrior mindset to be able to empathise enough to see the validity of what i'm saying?

There is a difference between strength of will/self and imposing "strength" on others.. that is just control, that is not strength.

Feminism is equality solely. Just like religion has its seeds in something very positive. some people go the wrong way.

I was raised with hippies. I know how to do a lot of things, withstand a lot of circumstances, I never give up.

I accept people as they are. I change circumstances. I don't know what is stronger.

I greatly respect all people as people, regardless of sex or any other factor. I expect the same, that is base of feminism.

I will go down on my man... I promise you this. Respect is the only factor worth my concern.


*I apologize for not addressing all you said, I see where you are coming from but honestly its just a misunderstanding of the terms/meanings.

 

[La Sagna]

Well, I really wonder where this idea of "what men are supposed to be like" comes from. I just see men as human beings. I think often men have the same end goal as women in many aspects but expectations are in place for them to be unfeeling or to not acknowledge or deal with emotions or whatever. I think it's very sad that the expectation exists. That said, I do think that there are men who embody stereotypical manliness, whatever that is, and can acknowledge their emotions without fear.

Your experience with your ESTP ex is very interesting to me as I am currently with an ESTP (pretty sure). He is not the type of person who would hide feelings or anything like that, it just doesn't come into his life. However, I see how he is with his family and how he is with me and there is a LOT of warmth and love there. There is tenderness and care and affection. Even though he is "cold" in that he doesn't empathize or whatever a lot, he is very solutions drive and feels very compelled to help people. I know a lot of times he can't exactly relate to my emotions, but he does try very hard to be there for me and to do what he can to help me in my life and make things easier for me. So that is how he shows his care. It's not as overt as others would be or what they would like.

If I compare that to my parents... It's kind of night and day. There was no verbal or physical affection in my family. I don't feel that I was particularly nurtured at all. When I see my boyfriend's family and how close and loving they are (They hug each other!) it's crazy to me. It's just out of my realm of experience. This is not exclusive to my parents, but extends from their parents and grandparents. I am not very physically or emotionally affectionate with ANYONE except my boyfriend. I also think this is why I come off as not emapthizing or sympathizing with people a lot and why some people think I am sociopathic.

I know that my ex has been highly influenced by his family background and his mom in particular. "Tenderness, care and affection' are not words that would ever come to mind in relation to his family. Emotions except for anger and happiness in the form of joviality and sarcastic and deprecating humour is viewed as nonsense and a waste of time. If I ever felt sad or cried it would just piss him off. He thought that it was a manipulation tactic on my part. I will never forget him telling me to 'get over it' in regards to my mother's death within a few months of her sudden passing. To this day he still defends that as his way of helping me. Then again, they are alcoholics who use booze to not feel their feelings. He also claims that he is a nicer person than me and cares more about other people than I do. He can care about the physical and financial well-being of other people but he seems incapable of allowing for people to have emotional needs of any kind. I am actually outwardly not a very emotional or emotionally needy person but he thinks that I am an emotional basket-case simply because I have any emotions at all, even after the death of my mother. I think he will have a rude awakening if he goes out there and tries to get into a relationship with another woman.

 

[muir]

I think we agree on a lot of stuff as well... we are here to have a full experience. However, it seems that we disagree on aspects of the nature of reality, how reality is formed, and our purposes and desires in experiencing this reality.
I believe you are right, and your reality is valid. I also believe I am right, and my reality is valid.

In many ways, you and I (like everyone else) do not live in the same world, and our perception, interaction with the environment, and subsequent experience is different.
I do not expect or even wish anyone to experience my reality. We are here to experience our own subjective reality. I love this and find it deeply fascinating and it enriches my experience. I respect that we all live in different worlds on the same planet, we experience reality both individually and collectively. But that doesn't change the validity of my reality and my experience. I live in what many would call a la la fairyland...i talk to/experience flowers and animals and rocks and trees and mountains and rivers. I believe in fairies and angels, because I have seen them and experienced them. I talk to entities that I know are benevolent and Loving, and I believe support me and care for me. When i look into a person's eyes, I see God. I absolutely do not believe in evil. Sometimes i don't understand why i and we are here, and why we do this thing called human life on Earth. At other times i know why and everything makes beautiful sense. There are things i know, and many things i don't know. In regards to how i live my life, I value my experience and perception more than anyone elses, because it is me that has to live with myself, and live with my choices. I could not deny the truth of my experience, any more than i could deny the truth of anyone elses.



I am here because i chose to be here. I am alive because of my inner reality and the creative energies of Source and the nurturing womb of the Earth. I accept that our cultural evolution has happened because of our ancestors and their beliefs and experience. I value men and women equally, and believe all humans have the same capacity for compassion, and that true strength is unconditional Love.

Im not playing a game of survival here. Im not interested in survival for the sake of survival. That game holds no interest. I want life, and that is what i believe we all deserve.
Compassion has enriched my life and made it worth living, and it has served me far better than physical strength and might.

What good is physical strength and weapons in a life lived with fear? What do i have to defend? What can anyone really take away from me by ending my physical body?
I have no time for wolves and psychopaths, i don't need them. And i am bored of hero versus victim epic, good versus evil, light versus dark sagas. What i want is to experience my life with as much joy as possible and enjoy this earth experience with all its wonders, contrasts, labours, highs and lows, and richness. I do not feel threatened by the 'psychopaths', and i have no desire to be threatened by them...i don't share your beliefs about them, nor live your reality. I dont ask you to share my beliefs, nor live my reality. But our perception and experience and understanding at this point of time and space, on this level of reality, is different, and i cant help but find that some how wonderful and see that as an aspect of human experience on Earth.

Humans are by nature cooperative. Life is interconnected and cooperative. Men and women are interconnected, and need each other and work well together for many reasons. The physical strength of a man is not his most important and valued attribute to me, although I do recognise it and appreciate it.

I see it this way....if people are living together as an 'interdependent' and 'healthy' family, everything they do for each other is also for the good of the family, and for the good of the individual. Because what is good and contributes to the health of the whole is also good and contributes to the health of the members. When I cook for my family it is because I am taking care of them and myself. When I earn money for my family, it is for their good and my own. When my daughter's dad earns money for our family, he does it for the good of our family, and his own good. When he mows the lawn...carries heavy things...fixes the roof.....plays with his daughter..

All people have specific strengths, talents, and passions. We are able to use these to fulfil our own needs and contribute to each other in romantic relationships, families, and communities. Because humans are by their very nature social creatures, group interest is often the same as self interest, and self interest is the same as group interest. Except when fear and pressure to conform to undesired goals come along.
We have friendships with people because there is something to be shared that benefits both parties. We work with people because we are trying to achieve a common goal, that is to the benefit and advantage of all parties involved.
All humans, men and women, can contribute their own unique strengths and qualities to a shared intention, sometimes, but not always, irrespective of gender and biological sex.




I simply do not agree with you. My interpretation of the data is different from yours. I do not think you are wrong, and i do not think you are right.
You believe what you do for your reasons, and i believe what i do for my reasons.

And i do not believe that humans- men or women should be 'engineered' or 'drugged'. I also do not believe that things happen unintentionally, everything happens because of vibration and the nature of how reality is formed.




Fear operates on the psychic level, it originates on the psychic level. All threats are psychic in nature. Fear is manifested and experienced on the physical level, but it is created and resolved on the psychic level. When we feel fear, we believe that the psychic integrity of our being and life is threatened. The way we experience and respond to fear is based on our beliefs, and the perceived security of our psychic integrity.
I have had my physical person threatened and violated on a number of occasions, but was able to deal with the fear because I didn't feel my physic integrity was threatened.

For various reasons, I'm uncomfortable sharing this story, but this experience has shaped my perception-
I started receiving threats three months ago by someone that intended harm and death to my daughter and i. My first thought was how the fuck did i manifest this...and then i felt fear, genuine blood curdling fear. I was afraid for my daughter, because i thought that my choices in the past would now hurt her and i wanted to protect her. For two weeks I actually closed the windows in my house. I jumped whenever i heard a car on my street, or the sound of footsteps outside, i had nightmares at night, and horrible images running through my head by day. I used protective magical objects around my house and family members. This was, honestly, the first time i had ever felt this kind of fear and threat, because this was the first time i keenly felt i had something to lose – my daughter- and i felt powerless. I felt confused and trapped, and not myself. I felt unable to connect with the Angels, even though i could sense they were still there. I felt alone, vulnerable, irresponsible, stupid, and weak...a coward...a fake. At first i didnt want to tell anyone about it, but then i realised i was disrespecting my daughter's dad and the rest of my family by keeping quiet. i showed them the threats. Obviously my family were angry, and considered several options, including violence as a way to deal with this situation. But i dont believe in violence, and therefore cant validly consider violence as an option. I told everyone to leave the situation and let me deal with it, and just support me emotionally while i was having this experience. Ofcourse, my family, especially the men in my household didnt accept this, but they have also have known me long enough to respect my choices. I meditated intensely on the issue, and allowed myself to fully embrace and experience the fear. I allowed myself to feel angry and furious and unloving and un-compassionate. And then i worked back, following the web of the situation to what created it. It was a complicated web, mostly hidden on the subconscious level, and disguised by false and shallow bandaid positive beliefs. i found that I held guilt that I needed to release. This person hated me and believed I was responsible for his pain and his problems. I had felt that person had the right to hate me because I hadn't done enough to help him and i had let him down by not meeting his expectations. I had allowed myself to feel responsible for his reality, and felt on a psychic level, that his anger was justified and deserved. I had believed that his reality was more valid than mine. I had believed that it was just for me to suffer for him believing that I had caused him harm. I saw how unloving and illogical my thinking and beliefs were. When light was shed on the real issue and cause of the situation, healing started taking place instantly. I saw myself compassionately, and saw him compassionately. I forgave myself, forgave him, and forgave the situation. The fear was gone. What was left was the understanding that I didnt want to play that game or participate in that story. I asked my spiritual guides to support me and help me. When I received messages after that, I deleted them instantly. I allowed myself to feel annoyed and angry, and naturally flow into compassion. And the feeling of harmful psychic intention disappeared. And then the messages stopped.

Generally, my fears had revolved around trying to prevent harm to others, in all areas of my life and interaction with the world at large. I was obsessed with the concept of harm in an unhealthy way, constantly analysing my actions and that of others to prevent harm. It was my worst nightmare to harm any person or entity. I would rather that person harm me than to harm them. I feared the 'reality of harm' more than anything else.

In the long past I discovered the reality and power of psychic energy. I understand what happens when I allow myself to get angry and direct that anger onto another person. I hated it when I lost my self control and horrible situations followed. I hated it when someone looked at me in fear and revulsion. I hated it when I saw them in pain, and I hated it when it reverberated back at me. What we give is what we get....there is no changing that rule. For a long time I kept my anger so tightly wound, hidden, and controlled that it became something I genuinely feared, and it inadvertently started to control me. I didnt realise this ofcourse. But I felt the effects of these thought patterns and beliefs manifested in my life. I felt that I was not able to fully experience my emotions, because I didnt want to allow myself the negative destructive ones. I was afraid of my negative thoughts and emotions....i was afraid of my thoughts and emotions. And i effectively restricted and shut of the validity of my perception and experience by denying half of it. I was afraid of, and didnt believe in the integrity of my being...i was afraid of myself! At times it would leak out, and I would be awed, impressed, and horrified at the power of anger and its creative potential. I would be amazed at how quickly shit got done and i was able to mobilise when i was angry. But i still feared it.

After that experience i explained earlier, I gave all my emotional experience free reign. I allowed myself to feel whatever it was that I needed to feel, without the fear of harm, and the fear of manifesting that negative thought and feeling into reality. I was amazed at how easily and naturally we experience and resolve things simply by being open and not afraid. How things run their course and then simply disappear.
I also realised how powerful and creative the energy of aggression is, and how necessary it is in living a balanced life. Aggression is this incredible force, it compels us and drives us forward, and demands our full attention and energy to move in the direction we choose.
Everything, all emotions, anger, fear, aggression...lead us back to Love if we allow ourselves to fully embrace and experience them. It is impossible to release what we have hidden from ourself. It is not possible to fully embrace our 'Self' if we are afraid of it. If we are afraid of our self, we will project this outward, we will manifest this fear physically, in our bodies, in our environment, and in the situations and circumstances that we attract.



I would never tell you to put make up on, wear a dress, and put flowers in your hair. If you did, I would probably...laugh...lol because I can imagine the look of indignation and horror you would have on your face. But if you did do those things, I would accept you and your personal choice to do those things, as I do for my female and male friends that do those things. I would still respect you as a person, having a valid perception and experience.
I would also probably say that you don't need to wear make up because you are beautiful and perfect exactly as you are, in your own skin.
Im not advocating anyone wearing make up, but I accept and respect that people do, because it is a matter of personal choice.



I'm not interested in the cultural movements and adhering to 'new age' or 'marxist feminism' or other peoples games
Im interested in Love
Im interested in living my own life and being happy.
Im interested in people living their own lives and being happy.
People loving their neighbour as themselves, even the ones that speak different languages, live in different places, and have different intentions.
I want people to love their Self unconditionally
I want people to know that there is integrity in being, no matter how it is manifested.
That they are perfect, and worthy of Love and deserving of all the joy, peace, freedom, abundance, power, and creativity they can imagine. That all answers are available to them and can be accessed by them within. That following their heart will always lead them Home. And that no one else- no other human, institution, entity, and system is a greater authority on the Self than that person.

...and great thread by the way....theres a shiton of discussion and different view...i can hardly keep up with any of it lol

I'm sorry to hear that you have been going through all that charlene and i hope it is all resolving

I think at the core we both have some very similar views but stepping back from both our posts and trying to look at them objectively i can kind of see two different energies emanating from them

There is a hard energy coming from mine and a soft energy coming form yours; we could reasonably call these 'male' and 'female' energies

Your method of dealing with a crisis might be different to mine

It's the interplay between these two energies that has made the human community so dynamic

Things go wrong when too much of one is manifested but when the two are in balance things are harmonious

One energy might be said to be more 'active' and one might be said to be more 'passive' and it's not that one is more valid than the other...it is perhaps how the two combine and play out that is important

Although i've labelled these energies 'masculine' and 'feminine' i think they both exist in each of us and can vary at different times. How we manage them can have a big impact on our experience. I do think that as a generalisation women do tend to act as conduits for more soft energy and that soft energy is a STRENGTH in itself but that society has portrayed only hard energy as STRENGTH for example in hollywood movies there are now lots of violent female characters punching peoples lights out

But the rock is hard and the water is soft...but which is the strongest over time?

hard energy needs to be met with soft energy because hard meeting hard is explosive. Soft energy cancels out hard energy and THAT IS A FORM OF STRENGTH

Dominance is a crude form of strength, but neutralising hard energy...now that's something a world full of hard energy can do with more of (turning the other cheek)

As i mentioned in my other thread i am aware of the destructive nature of the 'masculine' warrior energy when it is imbalanced but equally i think when the female energy is imabalanced it can leave itself too vulnerable

For me the ideal is about striving for balance

if you ever want to talk about what you've mentioned please feel free to PM

Thanks for the great contributions to the thread and althought ehre has been some ugly stuff in the thread i personally see it all as an instructive part of the rich tapestry of human experience

 

[Profoundhappiness]

BURN IT

I'm laughing at this... "humanity in technicolor!".. "Burn it" ... how dreary lol

 

[muir]

There is a difference between strength of will/self and imposing "strength" on others.. that is just control, that is not strength.

Totally agree...i think there are different forms of strength and i think the 'female' strength (the one exhibited traditionally by women) is one that isn't beign appreciated by society (there are reasons for this but i won't go into those here)

Feminism is equality solely. Just like religion has its seeds in something very positive. some people go the wrong way.

I diasgree.....i believe the seeds of its own destruction are sown within it

I was raised with hippies. I know how to do a lot of things, withstand a lot of circumstances, I never give up.

I accept people as they are. I change circumstances. I don't know what is stronger.

I greatly respect all people as people, regardless of sex or any other factor. I expect the same, that is base of feminism.

No that is what you are told feminism is about.....but if you check the small print so to speak then you find there's a whole lot more stuff going on

I will go down on my man... I promise you this. Respect is the only factor worth my concern.


*I apologize for not addressing all you said, I see where you are coming from but honestly its just a misunderstanding of the terms/meanings.

No worries

Can you understand my concerns about the loaded word 'fem-in-ism'?

 

[muir]

I'm laughing at this... "humanity in technicolor!".. "Burn it" ... how dreary lol

[video=youtube;ogdnxOvfnd4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogdnxOvfnd4[/video]

 

[Profoundhappiness]

Totally agree...i think there are different forms of strength and i think the 'female' strength (the one exhibited traditionally by women) is one that isn't beign appreciated by society (there are reasons for this but i won't go into those here)



I diasgree.....i believe the seeds of its own destruction are sown within it



No that is what you are told feminism is about.....but if you check the small print so to speak then you find there's a whole lot more stuff going on



No worries

Can you understand my concerns about the loaded word 'fem-in-ism'?

I understand that you are concerned, but it is pointless.

You are quite wrong to say I was told about feminism, I was never told anything, I saw it in action. period. everyone equal.

No one is on a pedestal. everyone uses their PERSONAL strengths regardless of sex.

Ie. a man cooks well, so he makes meals. a woman is thorough and can clean out a pigpen. everyone gets their hands dirty.

a man is warm hearted and speaks from within himself, using all of his depth of feeling.

I would not deny a man his feelings, his sweetness, acknowledging his affections, just as a man should not deny me my rights, my thoughts, my purpose, my independence.

I did not grow up with any structure, other than everyone having a common goal *harmony* and sexism is baseless and conflicts with this harmonic structure.

There is no limit here.

This is just a very clear thing. Only Fears muddy these concepts. Do we choose to live out our fears in our life? or do we choose to live out our love, in our life?

I love you. Your individualism is the key, your unique position, is the only thing that causes a natural growth.

You should respect me within my own, if you expect to receive it.

You are not any less because someone is equal. You are an individual regardless, you are a person, that is what you should know.

 

[LucyJr]

How strong can I be as an INFJ? Well considering the limitless possibilities? Very fucking strong. With a little emphasis there. It's hard to walk around unconsciously/consciously knowing shit like some crazy psychic person.. I mean that. I'm hyper aware. It has been an issue. Especially with people who have no intuition.

Your not any hyper fantasy. Your just a very Fe INFJ who knows how to manipulate people's emotions: you know how to read them, how to read certain reactions, emotions is your playground. That's it. Have you ever thought that maybe your problem is that simple?
I know very well the kind of INFJs like you: guys and girls alike. I know one of them so good that he even told me a little bit about exactly what you said right (exatly what you said) here: you know what I did answer him? To stop being manipulative.

And Maybe I am on the defensive and maybe that is why you prod me in such a way. Maybe I won't tolerate being victimized. Maybe I am my own protector. Your comment is a sinking ship. But I won't comment on your character even though I can deduce several "actual" things from your assertions. Your problems are your own.

Well, you are on the defensive.
Hint: however "hyper-aware" you are, I can be twice as fast as you are, trust me. I know how to break into someone's mind too well. But its just so ugly...

I have not stepped over my natural attributes, I have surpassed them. And as people that is what we must do to grow. Do not limit me to your set thinking.. I'm infinite. Because I choose to live my life without these limits. I accommodate for new experiences, I mold myself, I shape my life and it's contents. I have my goals present in my mind, and with that i make decisions.

I don't limit you.

But this thread isn't about me, it is about women.. Women who are supposed to fit in some conventional package, be selfless, always smile and be a delight, never have a troubling thought, be less decisive, be dainty, coordinated, lack the capacity for extreme philosophical thought, nor have their own mind, nor be their own independent person. As women we're supposed to need someone to help us.. The projection being..
We can't make it on our own.

yeap, well this is what the whole discussion is about in this thread. My opinion is different and I disagree with you.
I think even you don't believe it, your just contradicting yourself. Somehow you just hope, althought you know it will never happen.


And when we do, people look at us strange, how did you do that? How did you endure that? How did you not fall into pieces? How did you get buried under your life's moments? And get back up?

Maybe the trick is that we did. And every little piece of us followed at once to fulfill our purpose to come back together again. There is no true strength that does not accept weakness, no true hope that does not accept reality, there is no true love that does not accept imperfection as perfect.

I'm glad if you put this into the right framework, whcih si what usualy every man wants, men and women alike.
But its not about that to feminism. Feminism is more.

 

[LucyJr]

Some people never want to grow up. They just don't. Ever. No matter how many warnings they hear.

 

[SpecialEdition]

I know that my ex has been highly influenced by his family background and his mom in particular. "Tenderness, care and affection' are not words that would ever come to mind in relation to his family. Emotions except for anger and happiness in the form of joviality and sarcastic and deprecating humour is viewed as nonsense and a waste of time. If I ever felt sad or cried it would just piss him off. He thought that it was a manipulation tactic on my part. I will never forget him telling me to 'get over it' in regards to my mother's death within a few months of her sudden passing. To this day he still defends that as his way of helping me. Then again, they are alcoholics who use booze to not feel their feelings. He also claims that he is a nicer person than me and cares more about other people than I do. He can care about the physical and financial well-being of other people but he seems incapable of allowing for people to have emotional needs of any kind. I am actually outwardly not a very emotional or emotionally needy person but he thinks that I am an emotional basket-case simply because I have any emotions at all, even after the death of my mother. I think he will have a rude awakening if he goes out there and tries to get into a relationship with another woman.

INTERESTING. I say that in caps because I had an ENFJ ex who said the EXACT same thing to me when two friends of mine died in the same weekend. Would get annoyed if I cried or showed emotion. Every time I brought something up that concerned me it was cast down. I was gaslighted like fucking crazy through that entire relationship. That relationship nearly ruined me because I came to believe perhaps I was being irrational or that my concerns and feelings were not valid.

Much of what you are saying sounds so similar to what I went through albeit I only dealt with it for five years in my early 20's. I do notice some of my conditioning from that relationship has carried a bit into my current one.

My ex's upbringing also had distant parents... abusive, drug addicted father, etc. I can see the common thread.

Hmmmm... I am sorry you had to go through that for so long. I know how it feels. It is hard.

 

[muir]

I understand that you are concerned, but it is pointless.

You are quite wrong to say I was told about feminism, I was never told anything, I saw it in action. period. everyone equal.

Our greatest tool as a species wasn't the wheel or axes....it was LANGUAGE

Without language we are in real trouble. This is what Orwell who worked in the propaganda dept of the BBC during WW2 was warning us about in his novel 1984....he was really a whistleblower

He told us that the aim of the powers that be was to dilute our language so that it became virtually incomprehensible and limited in range.

The struggle over language is waged in the media everyday and it is not 'pointless' to protect language. I studied linguistics and i have a strong appreciation for language as a tool. It's what keeps us free and we should protect it because a large part of the game is related to language eg law and the creation of perceptions

No one is on a pedestal. everyone uses their PERSONAL strengths regardless of sex.

Ie. a man cooks well, so he makes meals. a woman is thorough and can clean out a pigpen. everyone gets their hands dirty.

a man is warm hearted and speaks from within himself, using all of his depth of feeling.

I would not deny a man his feelings, his sweetness, acknowledging his affections, just as a man should not deny me my rights, my thoughts, my purpose, my independence.

You won't find any disagreement here

I did not grow up with any structure, other than everyone having a common goal *harmony* and sexism is baseless and conflicts with this harmonic structure.

There is no limit here.

This is just a very clear thing. Only Fears muddy these concepts. Do we choose to live out our fears in our life? or do we choose to live out our love, in our life?

I love you. Your individualism is the key, your unique position, is the only thing that causes a natural growth.

You should respect me within my own, if you expect to receive it.

You are not any less because someone is equal. You are an individual regardless, you are a person, that is what you should know.

I don't disagree

I'm just discussing a linguistic point and making a warning about what chomsky (prof of linguistics) would call an 'abuse of language'

The association of the word 'feminism' with equality is an abuse of language because the word contains within it an innate bias

It's a recent ploy used only in recent decades; before this female rights were not called 'feminism'. Feminism is a recent label used in full knowledge of its implications by some very cunning people

 

[muir]

INTERESTING. I say that in caps because I had an ENFJ ex who said the EXACT same thing to me when two friends of mine died in the same weekend. Would get annoyed if I cried or showed emotion. Every time I brought something up that concerned me it was cast down. I was gaslighted like fucking crazy through that entire relationship. That relationship nearly ruined me because I came to believe perhaps I was being irrational or that my concerns and feelings were not valid.

Much of what you are saying sounds so similar to what I went through albeit I only dealt with it for five years in my early 20's. I do notice some of my conditioning from that relationship has carried a bit into my current one.

My ex's upbringing also had distant parents... abusive, drug addicted father, etc. I can see the common thread.

Hmmmm... I am sorry you had to go through that for so long. I know how it feels. It is hard.

I wonder how much of it comes down to the whole 'men are from mars, women are from venus' idea that men are solution orientated wheras women want to be soothed

So if a woman comes to a man with a problem she is really just looking for some sympathetic words and an arm around the shoulders but the guy instead starts trying to think of solutions!

In the male mind tears might seem superfluous to a solution whereas the women isn't looking for a solution she's looking for sympathy

If there is no solution perhaps that makes the situation even more difficult for the guy to deal with; he might be thinking on some level...''well what can i do about it?'' and the lack of solution on his part might leave him feeling depressed which then expresses itself as annoyance because the man lacks the ability to proces and express emotions in the same way a woman does (by crying)...so emotions are instead processed as anger

I don't know but i think there might be a kind of gender communication breakdown sometimes along these lines so i thought i'd throw this idea out there

 

[SpecialEdition]

I wonder how much of it comes down to the whole 'men are from mars, women are from venus' idea that men are solution orientated wheras women want to be soothed

So if a woman comes to a man with a problem she is really just looking for some sympathetic words and an arma round the shoulders but the guy instead start trying to think of solutions

In the male mind tears might seem superfluous to a solution whereas the women isn't looking for a solution she's looking for sympathy

I don't know but i think there might be a kind of gender communication breakdown sometimes along these lines so i thought i'd throw this idea out there

It was a woman who did it to me. So I would say in this scenario it does not apply.

 

[muir]

It was a woman who did it to me. So I would say in this scenario it does not apply.

Some women think in a solutions orientated way too; not everyone can process emotions freely

or maybe its something else

 

[SpecialEdition]

Some women think in a solutions orientated way too; not everyone can process emotions freely

or maybe its something else

I think in a solutions oriented way. This one was just a cunt.

 

[muir]

I think in a solutions oriented way. This one was just a cunt.

fair enough!

 

[Delta]

I know that my ex has been highly influenced by his family background and his mom in particular. "Tenderness, care and affection' are not words that would ever come to mind in relation to his family. Emotions except for anger and happiness in the form of joviality and sarcastic and deprecating humour is viewed as nonsense and a waste of time. If I ever felt sad or cried it would just piss him off. He thought that it was a manipulation tactic on my part. I will never forget him telling me to 'get over it' in regards to my mother's death within a few months of her sudden passing. To this day he still defends that as his way of helping me. Then again, they are alcoholics who use booze to not feel their feelings. He also claims that he is a nicer person than me and cares more about other people than I do. He can care about the physical and financial well-being of other people but he seems incapable of allowing for people to have emotional needs of any kind. I am actually outwardly not a very emotional or emotionally needy person but he thinks that I am an emotional basket-case simply because I have any emotions at all, even after the death of my mother. I think he will have a rude awakening if he goes out there and tries to get into a relationship with another woman.

Wow, it's funny how we can be so together in one way and yet lack so much in another. I am intrigued to know how you dealt with things at SUCH a fragile time.

I hope the ex learns to do better. I suppose that should be the greater process going on between the sexes wherever possible but I do distance myself from being told to act in any particular way, mainly because I am not able to be inauthentic. I don't think many men find they are being inauthentic when approaching women? I mostly take any interest shown towards me to be mainly a consequence of testosterone more than anything else, even cultural background, lol. To me it's like a lot of the time men can't help but act on visual stimuli. Not all of course but idk ...

Greece in particular is a nightmare to navigate! I can't imagine ever hearing a Greek man saying any of this about wanting women approaching them. I think their culture compliments their testosterone levels!